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Author Topic: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 487598 times)

PCCL

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #135 on: March 19, 2013, 12:20:57 PM »

i like that, some sort of reload mechanism

I prefer going offmap to reload somehow but I suppose that's a simpler implementation

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mmm.... tartiflette

StahnAileron

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #136 on: March 19, 2013, 01:08:11 PM »

First, let me make it clear to all others that I wasn't trying to make a suggestion. I was just trying to see what the future might hold in terms of develop of game mechanics.

Alex, do you think any other ammo-based weapons will affect CR? I'm thinking mostly of Ballistics, but there are some ammo-based Energy-DMG type weapons. (AM Blaster or Mjollnir, for example). You'd need to reload ammo based weapons between fights, no? Technically, that would affect combat readiness. I imagine you kinda don't want to touch on that yet (if at all) since that could push players towards pure, unlimited-ammo Energy-type weapons.

Probably not. Missiles are different in that they're both low-ammo and not generally a primary weapon type. For ballistics, ammo is there more for feel than mechanical reasons. I might actually eliminate ammo for ballistics altogether, or just bump it up to where it doesn't matter. Limited ammo on primary weapons creates some undesirable dynamics, such as waiting out the AI's ammo, aforementioned issues with what the desired AI behavior is (cautious to avoid damage vs aggressive to make efficient use of ammo), etc.

Well, my question became moot when you reveal you might eliminate ammo for all primary weapons. ::)

Related to that: would that open the possibility of new weapons being made that ARE ammo limited and meant more as secondary weapons like missiles? The AM Blaster is currently the closest thing to what I'm thinking of: powerful, but limited ammo. Good for bursts of firepower, but can only be used so many times, so not really meant to be primary weapons on a ship. Or specialty weapons, like an Energy Mount that can do Explosive or Kinetic DMG instead of the typical Jack-of-All-Trades EN-DMG.

On the flip side, might CR eventually affect ballistic ammo count if CR is too low between fights? Speaking of which: if battle are now in phases, will ammo levels at the end of phase one reflect in phase 2? Or will ammo be restored between phases/engagements?

No, for the same reasons - not the kind of dynamics I'd want to encourage. All ammo is reloaded between phases.

Okay, one less thing to worry about in a fight. ;)

Lastly, will we have visible supply consumption for missile ammo now? Supplies only have applied to crew, fleet repair, and fleet "maintenance" (for being over limits), yet not to the expendables/consumables known as ammunition. I ask the same if ballistic weapon ammo usage will affect CR and such at some later time (if at all). I just find it kinda strange that supplies really only consist of 2 things: Food (crew) and ship components (Fleet; think armor, wiring, conduit, etc.) Apparently ammo is freely available? ::)

At the moment, regaining CR has a slight supply cost associated with it, and ships have a per-hull maintenance cost, so I'd look at ammo as being one of those.

That works for me. ;D

I just wanted more reason to keep a stack of supplies in a fleet other than a simple, constant "upkeep" cost outside of in-flight repairs. Pillaging fleets gets irritating when you need to dump supplies constantly to make room for equipment. (Supply management is something of a nuisance currently; having something use up the supply "income" of fighting fleets or buying supplies justifies managing it a bit more closely.) Though now with the CR mechanic, I probably won't want to fight several fleets back to back as often, if at all ::)

For the ammo "issue": I believe there was a thread in the Suggestions section that advocated a "clip/reload" based system. More or less one idea that is mentioned here in response to your possible elimination of ammo altogether for primary weapons. You could have Weapon X fire Y rounds before needing Z secs to reload a full clip of Y rounds again.

I believe the balancing of Ballistic vs Energy was that Ballistics were flux efficient with limited ammo; Energy were Flux-costly but didn't have to worry about ammo limits (in most cases). The "clip size" for Energy was basically your Flux Capacity and the (constant) reload rate was your Flux Vent Rate (again, in most cases). I think a "clip" system for ballistics would be a decent compromise to eliminate the ammo "issue" while still retaining some of the aspects and mechanics of having "limited" ammo. You'd still have to worry about running out of ammo, but for timing reasons rather than endurance. ("Incoming missiles!" "The shields won't be able to take them!" "Activate PD!" *quick, short burst* "DAMN! I KNEW I shouldn't wasted all that ammo on those Wasps! >:( Evade to avoid or minimize damage as best as you can until the PD systems come back online!")

Otherwise, wouldn't you have to completely rebalance all the current weapons if you eliminated ammo?
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Gothars

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #137 on: March 19, 2013, 01:25:43 PM »

Actually... you know what might work better?  Instead of increasing the limits for ballistics, lower them - and add a "regenerate ammo when at zero flux" statistic, or maybe "regenerate ammo after X seconds of not-firing", typically with fairly high values for regen rate.  Thematically, this would mean, when you're not actively in combat you can resupply their magazines from stores.  


I really like that. It sounds like the perfect combination of the solution to the "limited ammo creates undesirable dynamics" issue and this:

Since we are talking about ammo, how about being able to reload ballistic weapons at the cost of CR, to represent the crew scrambling to grab and load ammo crates out of the cargo hold?
Oh, interesting idea! Will keep it in mind.

And I like the window of opportunity it might open for an attack on a ship with ballistic weapons.




But if you don't have to worry about ammo counts at ALL then you'll just spam it all the time and game the AI that way. No one likes flying into a constant stream of death.

If you fire mindlessly you will have a empty magazine very soon and then you'll have to stand down to reload very often.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 01:37:34 PM by Gothars »
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #138 on: March 19, 2013, 02:02:06 PM »

Interesting discussion, maybe someone can start a thread over in Suggestions so we can continue it?

I believe the balancing of Ballistic vs Energy was that Ballistics were flux efficient with limited ammo; Energy were Flux-costly but didn't have to worry about ammo limits (in most cases).

Just wanted to make a note here: ammo isn't a good balancing factor because it doesn't operate on the same timescale, at least when the count is high enough that it's meant to last through several fights. The general balancing of energy vs ballistic is "versatile and more costly" vs "more efficient but more specialized" (barring beams and other exceptions). Ammo *is* a balancing factor for missiles, though.
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Wyvern

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #139 on: March 19, 2013, 02:04:06 PM »

Interesting discussion, maybe someone can start a thread over in Suggestions so we can continue it?

Am working on that right now, actually.  Will edit this post with a link when I have it up.
And, new topic.  Yay!
« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 02:19:12 PM by Wyvern »
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Cosmitz

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #140 on: March 19, 2013, 05:18:50 PM »

Damn you guys, every time i get far enough away from Starfa---starsector, i check the forum and get dragged back in. :)
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StahnAileron

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #141 on: March 19, 2013, 05:32:37 PM »

Interesting discussion, maybe someone can start a thread over in Suggestions so we can continue it?

I believe the balancing of Ballistic vs Energy was that Ballistics were flux efficient with limited ammo; Energy were Flux-costly but didn't have to worry about ammo limits (in most cases).

Just wanted to make a note here: ammo isn't a good balancing factor because it doesn't operate on the same timescale, at least when the count is high enough that it's meant to last through several fights. The general balancing of energy vs ballistic is "versatile and more costly" vs "more efficient but more specialized" (barring beams and other exceptions). Ammo *is* a balancing factor for missiles, though.

Oh, dammit. That's right. I forgot about the specialization of Ballistics with EXP vs KIN damage-types. Ironic since I kinda mentioned it in that same post... Okay, that reminder reset a few things back to where my thought process should've been at th starting point. I feel stupid... (Full Disclosure: I haven't touched SS in a while :P )
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Tarran

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #142 on: March 19, 2013, 06:17:45 PM »

Posting in this thread to watch it, don't mind me do do do...

Oh, yes, I do in fact moderately like these new changes, by the way, if you the random reader are curious.
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Icelom

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #143 on: March 19, 2013, 09:15:28 PM »

Alex, do you think any other ammo-based weapons will affect CR? I'm thinking mostly of Ballistics, but there are some ammo-based Energy-DMG type weapons. (AM Blaster or Mjollnir, for example). You'd need to reload ammo based weapons between fights, no? Technically, that would affect combat readiness. I imagine you kinda don't want to touch on that yet (if at all) since that could push players towards pure, unlimited-ammo Energy-type weapons.

Probably not. Missiles are different in that they're both low-ammo and not generally a primary weapon type. For ballistics, ammo is there more for feel than mechanical reasons. I might actually eliminate ammo for ballistics altogether, or just bump it up to where it doesn't matter. Limited ammo on primary weapons creates some undesirable dynamics, such as waiting out the AI's ammo, aforementioned issues with what the desired AI behavior is (cautious to avoid damage vs aggressive to make efficient use of ammo), etc.

What if running out of ballistic ammo caused a small CR drop (so supply drop as well) and used a longer reload time to "restock" the ammo bays like 10-30 seconds(or longer)... this means you cant run out of ammo unless you stay in the fight so long your CR is gone... but it also makes ammo have some relevance. This idea could be extended to missiles as well giving them a larger CR drop and a larger restocking time.

Just an idea, because i think ammo count should stay somewhat relevant but i also understand why it can be exploited, "waiting" out the enemy fleet to deplete all its ammo may be effective but is it really fun?
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Cycerin

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #144 on: March 20, 2013, 05:16:58 AM »

How about being able to call resupply drones from any ship that has a flight deck, but if the resupply drone dies, the flight deck capable ship loses CR?
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #145 on: March 20, 2013, 08:29:51 AM »

Come on, guys, there's a link to a new thread for the ballistic ammo discussion on this very page.
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Dr. Death[Lexx]

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #146 on: March 20, 2013, 02:51:38 PM »

Misc-
...Added "shield arc" indicator to refit screen


+Kudos for this, alex.
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Wolfyharvell

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #147 on: March 21, 2013, 11:36:43 AM »

Is the shield arc a numerical indicator or a graphical one.
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #148 on: March 21, 2013, 11:40:09 AM »

Numerical, shows the arc in degrees.
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K-64

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #149 on: March 21, 2013, 11:44:54 AM »

For the shield arc, would it be possible to have it for fixed just showing on the refit, but on omni, circling round the sprite on the screen shows what it covers? Just to give a visual representation of its coverage.
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