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Author Topic: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 448894 times)

Taverius

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1020 on: September 18, 2013, 12:49:37 PM »

It's based on total deployment points, but it's not too big a gap, much less than double. Civilian craft do count.
That's ... somewhat unfortunate, given that the player needs them, but the vast majority of enemy fleets do without them, on account of they don't actually have to store loot for moneys.

Its also rather counter-intuitive. They're civilian craft, they can't fight worth a damn, therefore they're counted as battle strength?

I don't think anyone's ever called off a battle on account of the enemy's impressive array of cargo trucks ...
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Cosmitz

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1021 on: September 18, 2013, 01:13:46 PM »

No, but there is a limit to where the bonus avoidance is cancelled out by the space and tugboats they need, plus supplies, which can be better spent on combat craft in the first place.

In other news, CR-related, shield-ships should use more supplies... the gap between escaping unscathed and choosing to use and take armor damage which then needs repaired plus CR raised is a bit high. Also, while initially i was worried about supply, without going full-out-insane-fleet i can breezily go through the game from all the captured supplies.
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1022 on: September 18, 2013, 01:25:02 PM »

@Debido: Thanks for your feedback! I feel like I owe you a longer response, since you took the time to think all this out, but I have to keep it relatively short :)

Basically: what you're proposing is, well, extremely complex. As such, it's very unlikely to work as intended, and will probably end up with lots of different ways to exploit the system, having certain ships be very effective for a low CR cost.

I love the update so far, it's a joy to play....eventually...after you get past the initial learning curve of the new CR system and having myself spanked by other pirates...anyway

That point is I think particularly relevant - the more complex a system, the harder it is for the game to explain. As long as a simpler system creates mostly the same gameplay dynamics, I'm inclined to go with it.


It's based on total deployment points, but it's not too big a gap, much less than double. Civilian craft do count.
That's ... somewhat unfortunate, given that the player needs them, but the vast majority of enemy fleets do without them, on account of they don't actually have to store loot for moneys.

Its also rather counter-intuitive. They're civilian craft, they can't fight worth a damn, therefore they're counted as battle strength?

I don't think anyone's ever called off a battle on account of the enemy's impressive array of cargo trucks ...

Well, most can be kitted out to be fairly effective fire support (even a Tarsus with a couple of Railguns can make a difference in frigate fights), and they do contribute - indirectly - to the combat capability of the fleet. It'd be wrong to discount them completely, but perhaps the current deployment point values are a bit too high. They're still pretty low compared to combat ships, though. Hmm. Let me think about this some more.


In other news, CR-related, shield-ships should use more supplies... the gap between escaping unscathed and choosing to use and take armor damage which then needs repaired plus CR raised is a bit high. Also, while initially i was worried about supply, without going full-out-insane-fleet i can breezily go through the game from all the captured supplies.

High-tech ships already have significantly higher CR deployment costs. While the overall supply cost may be lower due to less repairs, the tradeoff is greater difficulty in maintaining readiness.
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Sproginator

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1023 on: September 18, 2013, 01:29:50 PM »

69th page

Hue hue hue

Sorry, Back on topic

Just booted up starsector after the update, gotta say, nice work :)
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leonvision

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1024 on: September 18, 2013, 01:42:55 PM »

is the sunder-class supposed to be ultra rare? ive played for a few cycles, and i only saw one at the very start of the playthrough when mysteriously disappeared after awhile. and ive been waiting for about 3 cycles and having seen a single one, ive checked all 4 orbital stations, even the tri-tachyon one, im pretty sure sunder-class cant be sold from there, from pass experience before 0.6.

Ive literally seen multiples of every single class hulls sold and not a single Sunder, am i just unlucky?
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Mattk50

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1025 on: September 18, 2013, 01:45:38 PM »

If you use and use more than a couple of any ship class, it becomes very rare. I have sunders in my stations but if i lost a few then they wouldnt get restocked for a very long time. Its the same with other ships i like using, esp the apogee.
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Taverius

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1026 on: September 18, 2013, 01:55:10 PM »

is the sunder-class supposed to be ultra rare? ive played for a few cycles, and i only saw one at the very start of the playthrough when mysteriously disappeared after awhile. and ive been waiting for about 3 cycles and having seen a single one, ive checked all 4 orbital stations, even the tri-tachyon one, im pretty sure sunder-class cant be sold from there, from pass experience before 0.6.

Ive literally seen multiples of every single class hulls sold and not a single Sunder, am i just unlucky?
I find them most often in the station in the new system with the name that escapes me right now, but yeah they're hard to get. High intensity laser too, on average half an hour of checking stations to fund one.
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leonvision

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1027 on: September 18, 2013, 01:56:46 PM »

If you use and use more than a couple of any ship class, it becomes very rare. I have sunders in my stations but if i lost a few then they wouldnt get restocked for a very long time. Its the same with other ships i like using, esp the apogee.

i havent used or bought any Sunders ever in this save game, im currently still in a pretty small fleet, consisting of a venture, longbows, and lashers. those three are all pretty common, so they never seem to be unavailable.

is the sunder-class supposed to be ultra rare? ive played for a few cycles, and i only saw one at the very start of the playthrough when mysteriously disappeared after awhile. and ive been waiting for about 3 cycles and having seen a single one, ive checked all 4 orbital stations, even the tri-tachyon one, im pretty sure sunder-class cant be sold from there, from pass experience before 0.6.

Ive literally seen multiples of every single class hulls sold and not a single Sunder, am i just unlucky?
I find them most often in the station in the new system with the name that escapes me right now, but yeah they're hard to get. High intensity laser too, on average half an hour of checking stations to fund one.

thanks for the info, ive been checking that station too, no luck so far.
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Cosmitz

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1028 on: September 18, 2013, 02:05:40 PM »

Anyone else really missing the "A" hotkey for repair in stations? I always end up pushing and then going 'd'oh'. Seems like a chore, though to be fair, i already play this game in hyperspeed so i may just be an odd case out and making sure people don't accidentally 'waste' supplies might be worth the tradeoff.
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xenoargh

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1029 on: September 18, 2013, 02:09:43 PM »

Alex is going to fix that one in the next patch :)
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Gothars

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1030 on: September 18, 2013, 04:42:05 PM »

Some miscellaneous notes on the update:


- I am very surprised how much more I enjoy the new deployment system with (almost) no artificial limitations. Two big fleets clashing head on, it is just glorious.  All the new campaign stuff aside, just the changes to the combat system alone are really a grand step in the right direction. In the few days the version is out I already had my best Starsector battles ever, some lingering in memory for many hours after.

- The new fighter mechanic just works. I mean not just that it makes sense, fighters feel much better now, much more personal. Watching fighters fight is really exiting, so much can happen! An example: A bomber was shot down directly over my Conquest, it crashed and slid over half the length of the ship, taking out several turrets on the way. It looked so awesome! Like a movie scene (back when that meant something).

- I don't miss gravity wells at all, good decision to get rid of them.

- The max burn system is clear and effective, I really like it. Tugs are cool. It also helps avoiding long-lasting chases  because there are no tiny speed differences. Maybe it could even work to estimate travel distances, if traveling one day at burn 10 would be the distance of one map grid or something like that. Then you would not only know how long, but also how far you can go with your supplies.

- I'm a bit split about CR. I think it is definitely the right direction to go in and I am thrilled by all of its effects on a battle. I love the deployment gamble and the ability to call in reinforcements (or rather that there is reason to have additional ships not join in the beginning). But I feel like part of the implementations on the campaign level are just too complicated. I mean, there are three totally different mechanics for how Logistic Capabilities are influenced by crew, ships and repairs. Not that I'm seeing a better way, but I'll keep thinking.

- The Campaign-UI needs to be shifted a bit towards supply consumption and its implications, but is overall a job well done. I only noticed today the 0% LR background shifting color more and more towards red, very cool.

- The new planet backgrounds like in "Dire Straits" are really good looking. Almost too good, nebula and asteroids seem a bit flat in comparison. Do you have any long-term plans for more background objects like asteroid fields, nebulas or planet rings?  (BTW, "The Last Hurrah" really needs to show the planet you're protecting!)
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Zaphide

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #1031 on: September 18, 2013, 05:00:51 PM »

Just to clarify: will all mods' ModPlugin.onNewGame() be called, or just the one pointed to from newGameCreationEntryPoint? Is there still an equivalent to replacing generators.csv with this new system?

onNewGame() will be called for all mods. newGameCreationEntryPoint just points to SectorGen. Which also includes registering a core implementation of the CampaignPlugin and some other stuff.

The order things are called in when a new game is created is:
newGameCreationEntryPoint.generate()
.generate() for everything in generators.csv (only there for some degree of backwards compatibility)
plugin.onNewGame(); for every ModPlugin

The equivalent to replacing generators.csv (which is something only a TC would do, right?) would be to point newGameCreationEntryPoint to another implementation of SectorGenerationPlugin.

Sorry to dredge this up from ages ago, but was having a bit of a think about this today :)

Is there a way where if two mods are loaded side by side, one mod can disable the other mods generator(s)?

Prior to 0.6, this could be accomplished by overriding generators.csv (via mod_info.json:replace), thus disabling any other mod from running it's generator code. Now, mods can specify ModPlugin in mod_info.json, which essentially replaces the purpose of generators.csv. Is there a way to stop it from running plugin.onNewGame() for every ModPlugin?

NOTE: I want to do this in a non-TC way. I realise this is somewhat un-conventional but I thought the previous method was pretty neat.
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Alfalfa

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1032 on: September 18, 2013, 05:23:54 PM »

Alex, what if you made it so enemy fleets decide to make a last stand if you're faster than them and have harried their retreat once or more?  Later on, you could add campaign fleet AI that would weigh their chances of making it to a friendly fleet or station before being harried to death.

By the way, about supply costs, for present game balance wouldn't it be easier to reduce the price of supplies to close to what it was before, but reduce the amount of money provided by defeated fleets?  You could also make supplies have a poor resale value.  Considering that supplies are supposed to be assembled (either from a store or a wreck) for the needs of your fleet specifically, selling off a large quantity of them would be the interstellar equivalent of a yard sale.  It seems like one of those would be easier than redoing the prices for everything else, which are about where they need to be relative to each other.  It's all about relativity.

@Debido I actually like the way missiles work in this game.  Granted, it in no way resembles how any real missile would function, but they are an effective and unique weapon on the battlefield.  The presence of missiles, more than being an immediate threat, serves to heighten the tension of a battle: they sap your focus; they limit your mobility; they eat up flux with point defenses and shields; they distract you from destroying your enemies; and if you should, for even a moment, forget their presence, neglect your defenses, they will destroy you.  A Salamander in the engines can send you pinwheeling through a cloud of missiles you were dancing around a moment ago.  A Sabot carelessly taken on the shields can overload your ship instantly, leaving you defenseless and unarmed while surrounded by enemies.  And torpedoes, oh god, just... don't get hit by those.

I do like the idea of tying CR loss directly to combat, at least partially.  You could still keep the current dynamics.  Make CR deployment cost a fraction of what it does now (small reduction for capital ships, bigger reduction for frigates) and introduce in-combat CR drains: weapon use, damage (shield, hull, or armour), engine use.  These drains could be weighted more heavily for smaller ships, simulating easy to deploy, low-endurance craft versus more logistically involved, but more independent, ships.  With all these fancy new system failure mechanics it seems a waste to only use them in scenarios brought about by poor management.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 07:04:52 PM by Alfalfa »
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1033 on: September 18, 2013, 10:25:18 PM »

- I'm a bit split about CR. I think it is definitely the right direction to go in and I am thrilled by all of its effects on a battle. I love the deployment gamble and the ability to call in reinforcements (or rather that there is reason to have additional ships not join in the beginning). But I feel like part of the implementations on the campaign level are just too complicated. I mean, there are three totally different mechanics for how Logistic Capabilities are influenced by crew, ships and repairs. Not that I'm seeing a better way, but I'll keep thinking.

Yeah, I'll keep an eye out as far as simplifying things a bit. Want to see how the higher level campaign comes together first, that may offer some unexpected possibilities.

- The Campaign-UI needs to be shifted a bit towards supply consumption and its implications, but is overall a job well done. I only noticed today the 0% LR background shifting color more and more towards red, very cool.

Yep, saw what you suggested re: "operating time" etc. Looks good at first glance, need to think about it some more though.

- The new planet backgrounds like in "Dire Straits" are really good looking. Almost too good, nebula and asteroids seem a bit flat in comparison. Do you have any long-term plans for more background objects like asteroid fields, nebulas or planet rings?  (BTW, "The Last Hurrah" really needs to show the planet you're protecting!)

The Last Hurrah has one! Nice Terran-type world, be a shame if anything happened to it.

I'd been half-thinking about allowing arbitrary graphics in the background, but, you know, totally not high priority.


Spoiler
Just to clarify: will all mods' ModPlugin.onNewGame() be called, or just the one pointed to from newGameCreationEntryPoint? Is there still an equivalent to replacing generators.csv with this new system?

onNewGame() will be called for all mods. newGameCreationEntryPoint just points to SectorGen. Which also includes registering a core implementation of the CampaignPlugin and some other stuff.

The order things are called in when a new game is created is:
newGameCreationEntryPoint.generate()
.generate() for everything in generators.csv (only there for some degree of backwards compatibility)
plugin.onNewGame(); for every ModPlugin

The equivalent to replacing generators.csv (which is something only a TC would do, right?) would be to point newGameCreationEntryPoint to another implementation of SectorGenerationPlugin.

Sorry to dredge this up from ages ago, but was having a bit of a think about this today :)

Is there a way where if two mods are loaded side by side, one mod can disable the other mods generator(s)?

Prior to 0.6, this could be accomplished by overriding generators.csv (via mod_info.json:replace), thus disabling any other mod from running it's generator code. Now, mods can specify ModPlugin in mod_info.json, which essentially replaces the purpose of generators.csv. Is there a way to stop it from running plugin.onNewGame() for every ModPlugin?

NOTE: I want to do this in a non-TC way. I realise this is somewhat un-conventional but I thought the previous method was pretty neat.
[close]

Hmm. Well, you could actually wait until all the generators have run, and then remove all the star systems from the Sector and generate whatever you want. That has the flavor of a cold war-style arms race between mods, though :) Without knowing the use case, I'm not seeing how allowing this could be safe. For example, a ModPlugin may add scripts required for the proper operation of the mod's content, in addition to generating new star systems and the like.



Alex, what if you made it so enemy fleets decide to make a last stand if you're faster than them and have harried their retreat once or more?  Later on, you could add campaign fleet AI that would weigh their chances of making it to a friendly fleet or station before being harried to death.

Pretty much this is on my TODO list, as far as things to look at :)


By the way, about supply costs, for present game balance wouldn't it be easier to reduce the price of supplies to close to what it was before, but reduce the amount of money provided by defeated fleets?  You could also make supplies have a poor resale value.  Considering that supplies are supposed to be assembled (either from a store or a wreck) for the needs of your fleet specifically, selling off a large quantity of them would be the interstellar equivalent of a yard sale.  It seems like one of those would be easier than redoing the prices for everything else, which are about where they need to be relative to each other.  It's all about relativity.

I'm not sure that's necessary just now. When there's a proper economy, prices will need another look.
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Mirage

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #1034 on: September 19, 2013, 01:34:24 AM »

Sadly I feel like I have to be a dissenter here.

Admittedly I haven't touched Starfarer/sector for a long time now but picked it up again with the release of this update and, well I don't much like it. First I thought it was merely being out of practice yet after 11 new games the same thing keeps happening, despite feeling like I was getting the hang of it again.

The reason for the dislike? Supply/CR. It goes something like this. Game starts, pirates chase me down, single ships usually though once was a larger group. Fight because I have to. Mostly win, some others lost. Fight over back to sector screen. Supplies consumed in moments, no money for more. More pirates incoming so run for life. Supplies dry up in under a minute. 30 seconds and 3 accidents later, game over. 11 times.

Likely the problem does lie with me but I just do not find this to be fun any longer. Either the supply consumption rates are much higher than I remember or accidents are just far too common and far too punishing (for my personal liking) at the very start of a new game.
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