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Author Topic: Alternatives to the current command points system  (Read 8876 times)

BonhommeCarnaval

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Alternatives to the current command points system
« on: January 22, 2012, 03:27:56 PM »

Hello world!

Since this is my first post on here I'll quickly say that I got here from Totalbiscuit's video, this game looks like my soulmate and I can't wait for the sandbox mode (which is when I will most likely buy it, if not before).

On to the topic.

As you might've guessed from the title, I'm not a big fan of the current command points system. I say this without having tried it first hand but I've pretty much looked for every Starfarer video I could find. HOWEVER, I am NOT suggesting that the RTS system is any better. I've read the blog post on why it was ditched and I fully agree! The purpose of this topic is not to discuss the RTS system or to argue in favor of it, it's to either find and eliminate flaws in the current system or suggest an entirely different one. Hopefully we can get a good brainstorming session going.

Here are two ideas I thought of quickly, feel free to shoot them down :

1) Instead of discouraging "micro" and RTS-like playstyles through command points, make it so that you need to broadcast your orders. By you, I mean you as the captain of whatever ship you are controlling yourself. This would take a short time (think about the time it would take to get on the space radio and yell at your stupid subordinates). During this time, you would have some sort of penalty, the first one I can think of being that your ship idles, or is controlled by your first officier (the AI). It could also take a few seconds for them to receive and react to the order, making "micro" useless and impractical. Either that or add a separate cooldown to each unit on how often you can give them an order, on top of the transmission time.

2) Another possible alternative would not get rid of command points but instead make it so that 1 command point allows you to give as many orders as you want at a specific moment. For example you pause, send Bob to retreat, Joe to capture the sensors and Alex to clean the toilets. This is 3 orders but you give them all at once with the game paused so they cost only 1 command point. With this method, each command point represents an entire "decision" or an entire "change of plan" or "next phase of the plan". I think this would already be much better because let's be honest, sending 2 fighters wings somewhere seems petty but costs 2 command points while sending the Bis'mar somewhere is a huge tactical decision that only costs 1 command point. With this method each command point deserves equal thought and is significant, and the amount of command point could be balanced to reflect this.

I guess it would also be possible to combine the 2 ideas but really it's all just brainstorming. The only thing I'm certain of at this point is that I dislike the current system. No offense intended, try to be constructive if you can help it. :)
« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 03:36:46 PM by BonhommeCarnaval »
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Erebos

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Re: Alternatives to the current command points system
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2012, 04:44:51 PM »

Hi, and welcome to the forum.

Starfarer has a steep learning curve in some regards, and an unusual command system which TotalBiscuit did not understand at the time he recorded  "WTF is Starfarer?". The current UI doesn't adequately explain everything one needs to know; I believe this has already been fixed in the dev version of the game, which is nearing release (right, Alex?). As such, I believe it is important to play the game in order to appreciate – and to be able to usefully discuss – the command system.

Personally, I have never had a problem with the limited number of command points, because you don't spend three points to command three units; instead, you spend one point to capture one objective, which in turn rewards you with several more points.

What is it, specifically, that you dislike about the current system?
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BonhommeCarnaval

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Re: Alternatives to the current command points system
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2012, 05:06:54 PM »

Hi, and welcome to the forum.

Starfarer has a steep learning curve in some regards, and an unusual command system which TotalBiscuit did not understand at the time he recorded  "WTF is Starfarer?". The current UI doesn't adequately explain everything one needs to know; I believe this has already been fixed in the dev version of the game, which is nearing release (right, Alex?). As such, I believe it is important to play the game in order to appreciate – and to be able to usefully discuss – the command system.

Personally, I have never had a problem with the limited number of command points, because you don't spend three points to command three units; instead, you spend one point to capture one objective, which in turn rewards you with several more points.

What is it, specifically, that you dislike about the current system?

My main problem with the current system is that it's very artificial and immersion breaking (for me anyway). This would be apparent and constantly in the back of my mind as I manage some mysterious "command point" ressource during the entire battle, every battle. Then it would go from the back of my mind to straight up in my face whenever I'd run out of said mysterious command points. In the event that this mechanic is kept, I hope there is an option, mod or cheat to disable it so that I can decide myself how much time I can spend giving orders before I stop having fun.

If the current mechanic stays in and ends up losing me any battle in campaign mode, I'd end up loading my last save until it were no longer the outcome for the simple reason that I would hate losing to an inferior force that I should have defeated simply because I had to fight some obscure invisible wall at the same time.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the idea of not playing this game as an RTS, I know I don't intend to, it's just the command points I actually hate (mostly in their current form, if I understand it right). Have you given some thought to my suggestions? Even if you like command points I'd think suggestion #2 would be much more immersive. It'd be like you, as the commander, get on communications occasionally to update your orders for all members of the fleet. I'd find it less of an immersion breaker and it would allow more freedom.
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Erebos

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Re: Alternatives to the current command points system
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2012, 07:08:43 PM »

Having a finite number of command points is indeed arbitrary, and it bothers me in principle. In practice, however, I have never actually run out of them, so it doesn't affect immersion or freedom.

Quote
....During this time, you would have some sort of penalty, the first one I can think of being that your ship idles, or is controlled by your first officier (the AI). It could also take a few seconds for them to receive and react to the order, making "micro" useless and impractical. Either that or add a separate cooldown to each unit on how often you can give them an order, on top of the transmission time.

Losing control of your flagship would be frustrating, and potentially disastrous. Instead, perhaps pausing in the war room could be disabled instead, thus forcing the player to balance their attention between controlling their fleet and their flagship, but this could likely end in catastrophe as well. I wouldn't be surprised if the devs have tried this at some point, and if so, I'd be interested to hear how it went.

Delaying order transmission wouldn't discourage micro, because you can't micro your units. They make their own decisions, and they're quite good at it.

Quote
2) Another possible alternative would not get rid of command points but instead make it so that 1 command point allows you to give as many orders as you want at a specific moment. For example you pause, send Bob to retreat, Joe to capture the sensors and Alex to clean the toilets. This is 3 orders but you give them all at once with the game paused so they cost only 1 command point. With this method, each command point represents an entire "decision" or an entire "change of plan" or "next phase of the plan". I think this would already be much better because let's be honest, sending 2 fighters wings somewhere seems petty but costs 2 command points while sending the Bis'mar somewhere is a huge tactical decision that only costs 1 command point. With this method each command point deserves equal thought and is significant, and the amount of command point could be balanced to reflect this.

Again, running out of command points isn't a problem. The problem is that command points are an artificial resource, and your second suggestion doesn't address this.

Quote
It'd be like you, as the commander, get on communications occasionally to update your orders for all members of the fleet.

This is how it currently works. You don't give orders to individual units; you give orders to your fleet as a whole, and units are automatically allocated to tasks.
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Alex

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Re: Alternatives to the current command points system
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2012, 07:54:19 PM »

Losing control of your flagship would be frustrating, and potentially disastrous. Instead, perhaps pausing in the war room could be disabled instead, thus forcing the player to balance their attention between controlling their fleet and their flagship, but this could likely end in catastrophe as well. I wouldn't be surprised if the devs have tried this at some point, and if so, I'd be interested to hear how it went.

I don't think it'd be a good idea to have an element of time pressure when making those combat-strategy-level choices. That could get really hectic. Besides, I'm just not a fan of not letting the player pause - it's common courtesy, really.

Whether you let the player do something while paused is another question - but if you don't, they could still pause to think, and then unpause to very quickly execute, so not letting the player do stuff while paused would simply be annoying. It seems more appropriate to reward thoughtful consideration, anyway.

Again, running out of command points isn't a problem. The problem is that command points are an artificial resource, and your second suggestion doesn't address this.

Hmm. Well, there is a good in-fiction explanation of the mechanic. It's a measure of how good your character is at command - what kind of complexity they can handle in terms of coordinating their ships, etc. I think that when looking at any mechanic in terms of immersiveness, you can find a way to think about it does not make sense. The question is, can you find a way that does?

A mechanic that's more abstract - the way command points are - offers more opportunity for both. Personally, I like having the extra freedom this offers when building my own internal narrative of what happened in a given battle. The side effect is that it's also easier to see it as something that, on the surface, doesn't "make sense". I think the tradeoff is worth it - a richer experience, if you're willing to use your imagination.
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Erebos

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Re: Alternatives to the current command points system
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2012, 08:28:59 PM »

Whether you let the player do something while paused is another question - but if you don't, they could still pause to think, and then unpause to very quickly execute, so not letting the player do stuff while paused would simply be annoying. It seems more appropriate to reward thoughtful consideration, anyway.

Good point.

....if you're willing to use your imagination.

My what? :p

I'm cautiously optimistic about the current system; I think I'll be surer once I'm playing 0.5. Abstract things like command points don't really bother me; after all, where would games be without hard numbers—hit points, anyone?
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Zapier

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Re: Alternatives to the current command points system
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2012, 08:56:02 PM »

I've still been doing some thinking about these sorts of topics when they come up, and listening to many of the suggested solutions to it. There are so many that I know I've missed a lot of them and of course have no idea which ones Alex has played with before. I myself have thought of similar designs to the OP's suggestion number two, and I know some others have and I believe Alex has too, but revisiting it some, I wanted to propose/ask Alex about a variation on the second suggestion.

Most people who have the most issues with the current system seem to be running out of orders in the middle of battle, which then gives them obvious frustrations. Those of us who don't may have running out in mind, but we try to limit ourselves, thus avoiding the potential headache when running out, but that's not to say that it doesn't affect some decisions or still frustrate those players. The quick solution we seem to jump to, is trying to find a way to either 'regenerate' command points or have a way to not run out (usually through some idea of having a set number of orders at any specific time). I know I'm not a fan of giving too many Command Points to players without having a better reason for it (such as a character skillset later on that could increase the potential of acquiring or starting with more), but running out does mean literally flying without control of your fleet when you do.

I'm sure Alex or any other dev with better knowledge here will correct me when if I'm wrong, but I feel like the command points is still very much part of the system being used to prevent the excessive micromanagement of your fleet, of issuing individual orders to individual craft every couple minutes. I do feel this is a good point. The problem for me then stems from the CP's limiting even the macromanagement potential. I'm wondering, is there a way to make certain commands/orders... like say capture/assault orders for nav buoys, etc. and perhaps even a simple defend order not cost command points, the way retreat doesn't? Those orders aren't really micromanagement, since it does leave things up to the AI to decide how to best handle that situation, who to send where, etc. Leave the other orders, such as individual assignments and even order specific rally points for strike forces and carriers to cost Command Points, which I think would then still limit the 'micromanagement' while not leaving you ever in a position that you can no longer call your fleet to defend at a specific waypoint or unable to order your fleet to capture or assault nav buoys, etc. that you may have lost (which can then provide you with those additional CPs from successfully capturing them).

I would think letting a few of the more general orders not cost command points would be an effective solution to allowing anyone to never lost complete control of their fleet, while still leaving the CP function (with perhaps a few reduced points if more general orders would no longer cost CP) in place to reduce the dependency on micromanagement of every vessel.

Putting it into a sort of in-fiction explanation would be one that would seem giving general orders to your fleet (and I don't mean the search and destroy types but capturing points or defending a location) wouldn't really take much command experience to give such orders. Even the most inexperienced captain/admiral should be able to look at a map and say, "I want to capture Sensor Array Beta" or "I want to defend this location." The more experienced captains/admirals might then issue individual orders to supplement the overall strategy such as, "Captain Fred (I like the name Fred for generic people :P) I want you to take the ISS Black Star to Sensor Array Beta" "Lieutenant Zomg take your frigate to this defensive waypoint."

In fact, has it been tested at all having most of the general orders (such as harass, capture, assault, defend waypoint, defend location, etc.) not cost command points but then to specifically assign orders actually being what takes those points? In my experience (and I don't do much orders so anyone feel free to chime in to correct or add input) it takes an order to issue the capture order or harass order, which I have to do first before I use can use the assign task order for those targets... since there's no icon to select before that first order is given. So, to harass an enemy target, I must use one command point to issue the harass, then a second if I want to give a specific assignment order. Removing the cost for the first order would leave commanders free to issue general orders in combat (which leaves it up to the AI to assign tasks to the fleet), but would still then cost a CP for the more micromanagement types wanting to send specific ships to targets.

I think I repeated myself a few times, but yeah. I don't recall reading this sort of 'compromise' anywhere. I just think this might eliminate that pesky, I have no CPs and thus cannot issue any orders but retreat or search and destroy (which to me is just running out of points and letting the AI decide anyways), while still preserving the current system of CPs that is in place to limit the amount of time people spending ordering individual units.

Comments? (I'm more in favor of the current system anyways, just FYI)
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DNAz

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Re: Alternatives to the current command points system
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2012, 09:07:34 PM »

Snip

How about a bar. Unike flux it drains when you make orders instead. Rapidly making multiple orders makes you lose initiative (or other name) bar and you can only regain it by waiting or like now killing ships and taking points (Maybe the enemy reduces it as well? Or to Unbalanced?) and it will simulate a commander being frantic and a mess and having no direction or composing himself or choking up after massive losses or getting confident after capturing a objective. Like before as planed in sandbox your character can get a bigger bar each level naturally and maybe more points after specialization (Putting points into leadership). I like having different commands draining the bar different amounts as well.
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Zapier

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Re: Alternatives to the current command points system
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2012, 09:32:53 PM »

How about a bar. Unike flux it drains when you make orders instead. Rapidly making multiple orders makes you lose initiative (or other name) bar and you can only regain it by waiting or like now killing ships and taking points (Maybe the enemy reduces it as well? Or to Unbalanced?) and it will simulate a commander being frantic and a mess and having no direction or composing himself or choking up after massive losses or getting confident after capturing a objective. Like before as planed in sandbox your character can get a bigger bar each level naturally and maybe more points after specialization (Putting points into leadership). I like having different commands draining the bar different amounts as well.

I'd like that it if 'regaining composure', if you will, didn't happen naturally just by waiting. I'd definitely want it to be more about killing ships or taking points. The problem with regaining it overtime would be similar to some of the suggested ideas (in other threads I've read) where you might regain CPs overtime based on your command ability. Not to mention, I think maintaining your 'command potential' in that manner might be even more cumbersome to some players, whereas a arbitrary point system won't make players feel like on top of piloting, they need to manage their command ability during a fight. It would present some very unique gameplay, but probably something that might scare away more people than just ruffling their feathers. :P

I just feel like the current system is not about limiting a player's ability to command or issue order to their fleet, but in limiting direct orders to individual ships. With no CP limitation, players might be more tempted to issue direct orders rather than leaving those decisions to the AI, because we can analyze more situations better or just have personal preferences... so some people would likely view the overhead map issuing direct orders constantly, even with a system like you suggested, because if it could regenerate on it's own, then players would still have that direct control of their fleet, albeit more slowly, thus favoring more long and drawn-out combat to retain control.

The compromise, I think, lies in retaining overall control over your fleet... while limiting direct control of your fleet. It's like listening to combat communications... if you're listening to every individual soldier during a battle, it's going to be harder to first, interpret the information, and then second, issue orders back over the information coming in. Like sensory overload. If you listen to the input coming in from commanders of units... or in this case, commanders of say strike forces and carrier fleets, they will take the information coming from their forces and relay what they believe is necessary information up to you, and then it's easier to give orders to those commanders who then take their fleets or strike teams and issue orders. The basic chain of command. Any method that leaves a near-infinite possibility of bypassing commanders and giving direct orders to individuals will mean you'll choose more direct orders... in a game with pause, it's simply better because you DO have the time to weigh decisions and view all the available information. So, limiting the ability to give near-infinite direct orders is what I believe is necessary to provide that immersion. Removing your ability to give general orders in the process (such as capturing locations which is something the AI handles when assigning fleet units) I think has been the victim, and what needs to be remedied.

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Erebos

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Re: Alternatives to the current command points system
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2012, 09:40:08 PM »

I withdraw from this thread. Zapier speaks for me now.
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Zapier

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Re: Alternatives to the current command points system
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2012, 09:54:22 PM »

I withdraw from this thread. Zapier speaks for me now.

I believe you've run out of command points to issue such an order...
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BonhommeCarnaval

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Re: Alternatives to the current command points system
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2012, 10:25:04 PM »

Hmm. Well, there is a good in-fiction explanation of the mechanic. It's a measure of how good your character is at command - what kind of complexity they can handle in terms of coordinating their ships, etc. I think that when looking at any mechanic in terms of immersiveness, you can find a way to think about it does not make sense. The question is, can you find a way that does?

A mechanic that's more abstract - the way command points are - offers more opportunity for both. Personally, I like having the extra freedom this offers when building my own internal narrative of what happened in a given battle. The side effect is that it's also easier to see it as something that, on the surface, doesn't "make sense". I think the tradeoff is worth it - a richer experience, if you're willing to use your imagination.

As I said, nomatter if I run out of command points or not, if they are in I will be forced to take them into consideration. To me that's about as interesting as having rainbow ponies on the field that give you a 500% damage bonus for 10 seconds. Sure, you can implement it in a balanced way, but I'll never play a space game where I enjoy having to take rainbow ponies into consideration in my battle plan. Command points are about as real and immersive as rainbow damage bonus ponies for me.

It's a silly analogy but my point is that while I don't care about hardcore realism (near infinite acceleration in space, near unlimited range on weapons, etc.) because most of those things aren't fun, I DO care about immersion so I would like to go into a space battle thinking about the battle, my ships and weapons, my enemies... not the "CP : 5" at the top right of the screen.

Just imagine if Mount and Blade, assuming you played it, had command points. Would it be balanced? Probably, I did most of my battles without issuing any orders. Would it be immersive? No. It would just get in the way of me pretending to be a warring noble at the command of a small army. Nomatter how you implemented it, or if you had the medieval equivalent of sensor relays on the battlefield, it would feel silly to me.

I realized I might be discussing this uselessly as you may plan to have an option to disable command points. Or allow us to mod it out. Or cheat to have an infinite (or practically infinite) number of them. If any of these will be possible then please let me (us) know so I can stop worrying about it and disable them as soon as I install the game. I'm fine with other players using said command points if they enjoy them, it's a single player game afterall. :)

If you didn't plan on giving us any means to disable them, please do so. It could be an option when you start your campaign where you can pick between command being "easy" or "normal" with normal being the default option, which would definitely encourage a ton of people to try it on normal and see if they like it. Others who are certain they dislike the system and don't care for bragging rights could set the command mode to easy (infinite CP).
« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 10:34:52 PM by BonhommeCarnaval »
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Zapier

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Re: Alternatives to the current command points system
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2012, 10:52:18 PM »

Just imagine if Mount and Blade, assuming you played it, had command points. Would it be balanced? Probably, I did most of my battles without issuing any orders. Would it be immersive? No. It would just get in the way of me pretending to be a warring noble at the command of a small army. Nomatter how you implemented it, or if you had the medieval equivalent of sensor relays on the battlefield, it would feel silly to me.

I realized I might be discussing this uselessly as you may plan to have an option to disable command points. Or allow us to mod it out. Or cheat to have an infinite (or practically infinite) number of them. If any of these will be possible then please let me (us) know so I can stop worrying about it and disable them as soon as I install the game. I'm fine with other players using said command points if they enjoy them, it's a single player game afterall. :)

If you didn't plan on giving us any means to disable them, please do so. It could be an option when you start your campaign where you can pick between command being "easy" or "normal" with normal being the default option, which would definitely encourage a ton of people to try it on normal and see if they like it. Others who are certain they dislike the system and don't care for bragging rights could set the command mode to easy (infinite CP).

Curious if you read my proposed system in comparison. Anyways, I know you were talking to Alex, but I myself played Mount&Blade since it's development as well. I think many people, including Alex, see similarities in M&B from what we want to experience in Starfarer. In M&B, you're right... there were no command points... but what was included was tactics. That could either swing the number of men you brought into a battle at any given time either in your favor or the enemy's favor. On top of that, as I was trying to point out in my suggestion, Mount&Blade allowed infinite orders in a very general term. You could order rally points, order the charge, just infantry to charge, etc. The problem with Starfarer seems to be that many people want to order individual units much more often, and I think you're in this group. You enjoy issuing direct orders, which is fine. Mount&Blade offered no direct orders. I could not order Borcha to chase the enemy noble or defend a specific point. He would get lumped into the infantry, cavalry, or archer categories like all the others. This is what Starfarer is also doing, in my opinion.

Putting 'control points' in these missions are there I think simply for the sake of the missions. What most battles will include in the main campaign, I don't know... but they will probably still include control points. They give something to fight over. The problem I fear in having no control points or anything other than the incentive to battle is that you might end up with the AI acting like how some games do... take Total War games for instance. I find that the AI and field battles in most Total War games can end up being a complete pain to deal with. Many times the AI, when outnumbered or outmatched, offense or defense, would simply pull their troops together and either make you wait 15-60 minutes for the time to run out (if you were defense) or come to them to finish the fight sooner (if you're on offense or simply tired of waiting) which usually resulted in more casualties than necessary. Sometimes even with a smaller army you could attack a 'stronger' AI army and then sit on the defensive because they'll march to you, thinking they're stronger but then get decimated because you have set up defenses despite being on the offensive. It made battles somewhat wonky.

These control points that offer incentives, such as increased reinforcement capabilities, attack range or ship speed give the AI and you something to fight over. It makes even fairly matched fleets choose to fight rather than choosing a battle of wills for who will move first and give up the defensive advantage (unless you truly are in a defensive type battle where more control points may be closer to you) because even though I match exactly with the enemy... why make the first move and give up a better defensive posture (which usually ends up a safer bet) and risk larger losses? Well, because if the enemy acquires the control points, they'll be faster and have better range giving them the needed advantage for taking the initiative to overcome your defensive posture (whether or not you truly are...).

As you said, it is a single player game after all, which means you're pit against an AI that is more easily taken advantage of. These control points give the AI something more concrete to adjust strategy on than the ever changing and ever imaginative human mind. It's simply a game mechanic that all games have. They have designs and features, limitations and structure to fit the way the game works. As much as I hate fighting over control points too, I think they're somewhat necessary in giving the AI better tactical strategy without investing huge amounts of time into AI. Later on in the development, maybe we can do away with them, but for now I think we have to accept them... which means also accepting CPs as a way of also helping the AI combat a superior human mind. Our challenge is finding the right balance... too far one way or the other won't work... which is why I hope possibly my suggestion might offer some things to think about that might help achieve that goal.

Edit: Why I got into Control Points... I don't know... that wasn't even in your post either... my mind has fractured! I think my points still stand in the control point issue, but this isn't really the place that needed it. My apologies.

Edit2: I think I got into control points because command points tend to revolve around control points too... I don't know. :)

EditTHREE!: I know why I got into control points... it was because I was reading posts in another thread about commanding your fleet or something, and someone mentioned campturing control points feeling kinda RTSish... somehow I brought that over here in my response. Again, sorry for the tangent!
« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 11:06:03 PM by Zapier »
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BonhommeCarnaval

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Re: Alternatives to the current command points system
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2012, 11:14:30 PM »

I don't like playing this kind of game as an RTS, by the way. I played almost all of SPAZ without controlling anything but my biggest ship and not giving the others orders, leaving it to the default "follow me". But let's continue this SPAZ example, there was a tough fight against a Hammerhead in the storyline missions where I used precise fleet management to pull off an otherwise impossible victory. Had I run out of command points in SPAZ on that mission it would've been the crappiest moment in the entire game and possibly disappointing enough for me to stop playing temporarily to avoid getting frustrated.

Mount and Blade's system is immersive because the order for one individual to attack another specific individual in a medieval 120 v 120 would be near impossible to do. I don't mind limitations, just the artificial immersion breaking ones. I wouldn't mind if Starfarer's orders were similar to Mount and Blade's but could be issued without artificial limitations. You can also verify but as far as I know, the Tactics skill in Mount and Blade is only put to use when the number of units on both sides is higher than the maximum number of units that can be in a battle at once. The mechanic was put there out of necessity to balance a particular situation where current generation hardware was unable to handle the full battle.

CPs are definitely not a necessary balance mechanic. Difficulty can easily be adjusted through other means such as a difficulty level that gives a handicap to the player or the AI, found in most games.

Also, saying that all games use a similar mechanic seems a bit hard to believe. I can't think of a single one (note that even if there's a few, that's not the same as "most games"). Quite a few games leave it up to you to have the AI cheat or not, and an even bigger proportion of games have the AI play by the same rules without giving you the option.

Anyway as I said, it's a singleplayer game. I'd like to mod CPs out or disable them or cheat to have a ton of them. Hopefully that's possible because it wouldn't affect anyone else's enjoyment of the game or their playstyle. It also wouldn't require any additional programmation (other than a checkmark button in the options that disables them). It's not like asking for an extra feature.

I don't even care if it's not an option in the vanilla game as long as it can be modded, because we all know that would be one of the first mods to come out.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 11:18:34 PM by BonhommeCarnaval »
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Zapier

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Re: Alternatives to the current command points system
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2012, 11:54:56 PM »

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I don't like playing this kind of game as an RTS, by the way. I played almost all of SPAZ without controlling anything but my biggest ship and not giving the others orders, leaving it to the default "follow me". But let's continue this SPAZ example, there was a tough fight against a Hammerhead in the storyline missions where I used precise fleet management to pull off an otherwise impossible victory. Had I run out of command points in SPAZ on that mission it would've been the crappiest moment in the entire game and possibly disappointing enough for me to stop playing temporarily to avoid getting frustrated.

Alright, let's discuss the SPAZ gameplay. In SPAZ, you were always limited to having control of 4 ships at most (was four, right?) so, yes issuing direct orders to them and being limited would be silly, but SPAZ was also a bit more arcade-like to me. It wasn't meant to be more in-depth strategy. It was always about blowing up more and more things. Also, when you lost in SPAZ, it was repair your stuff and stuff and try again. You never really had to rebuild your fleet or you lost a world or sector that might be your economic hub of your personal empire. Like Mount&Blade, losing means rebuilding. Losing in SPAZ was like, [CONTINUES = XX] or [QUIT]. You will and should lose in Starfarer sometimes... to me that's the fun, but I know it isn't for others, so let's move on.

Also, I'm still waiting for some comments on my suggestion. I've suggested that some of the more basic orders be CP-free... say, capture, assault, defend waypoint and possibly a few others. That way you can assign basic orders while letting the AI decide in it's own fashion what ships, when, etc. because pilot personalities that Alex would like to implement will surely have a major impact here. Removing the ability for the AI to do much of anything will make that feature practically pointless. I believe the ability to give general orders is getting punished for the design of the game to stay away from sitting at the edge of the map giving direct orders constantly to each unit. By keeping CPs for direct orders, such as you specifically ordering a certain ship to a task would be fair. Think Generals in an army. They'll give orders to the next officers down in the chain of command, and then those officers to their next subordinate and so on. The Captain is rarely issuing orders to each person directly... but this can be augmented by a character stat of some kind, etc.

Let's face it, if you were a hired merc pilot protecting, say... a merchant vessel... you might listen to his orders of protecting his ship, because he's paying your bills, but when telling you how to best protect his ship, I think you'll think you know better... this is why I'm voting for finding out if Alex has tried giving more freedom in the usage of free general orders while keeping a restriction that can be augmented with future character skills on direct orders.

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Mount and Blade's system is immersive because the order for one individual to attack another specific individual in a medieval 120 v 120 would be near impossible to do. I don't mind limitations, just the artificial immersion breaking ones. I wouldn't mind if Starfarer's orders were similar to Mount and Blade's but could be issued without artificial limitations. You can also verify but as far as I know, the Tactics skill in Mount and Blade is only put to use when the number of units on both sides is higher than the maximum number of units that can be in a battle at once. The mechanic was put there out of necessity to balance a particular situation where current generation hardware was unable to handle the full battle.

I agree. M&B's system would feel silly if you could give specific individual orders in a medieval setting. Yes, tactics did do that and that's what I was referring to. It's a system to allow you to get an advantage against 1000 man armies if you had 100 crack knights. Fights were easy tramping 25 enemies at a time when I could field 60 of my heavy armor cavalry. If I actually had to fight all 1000 at once, it would be a hell of a fight and with enough archers, probably lose. Also, the game engine couldn't handle that many... nor were most battlefields capable of really supporting 1000's, but that's an artificial limitation regardless if it was because of the current generation hardware or a developer's choice. Artificial limitations are a part of every game, or why can't I just conscript my entire town's population in M&B? In medieval times many armies were levied by forcing people to fight... but they didn't include it into M&B, because sometimes you just shouldn't be able to. In Starfarer, you can't issue a billion orders, because you just aren't meant to.

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CPs are definitely not a necessary balance mechanic. Difficulty can easily be adjusted through other means such as a difficulty level that gives a handicap to the player or the AI, found in most games.

Also, saying that all games use a similar mechanic seems a bit hard to believe. I can't think of a single one (note that even if there's a few, that's not the same as "most games"). Quite a few games leave it up to you to have the AI cheat or not, and an even bigger proportion of games have the AI play by the same rules without giving you the option.

Yes, you're right. I don't believe CPs are a balance mechanic. In fact, I've read from Alex that it is in fact to steer players towards the type of gameplay that the AI is designed to go up against, meaning you piloting your ship and the enemy AI fighting other enemy AI without the so-called RTS style orders. So, they're a means to steer a certain type of gameplay which games often use.

I also meant all games use gaming mechanics in various ways to give an AI an advantage and my topic there was on Control Points rather than Command Points. I got sidetracked and off-topic and for that I apologize. As for saying Command Points is on par with allowing an AI to cheat... I have that hard to believe. The AI is simply using the same AI your own fleet will use sans-orders if I'm not mistaken. It may not seem that way when playing these missions, but these missions are designed to be a certain difficulty. Deploy your entire fleet in the easy missions and I think on their own they could probably do pretty well against the enemy AI... and the enemy AI may be limited by CPs as well. Only Alex could say for sure.

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Anyway as I said, it's a singleplayer game. I'd like to mod CPs out or disable them or cheat to have a ton of them. Hopefully that's possible because it wouldn't affect anyone else's enjoyment of the game or their playstyle. It also wouldn't require any additional programmation (other than a checkmark button in the options that disables them). It's not like asking for an extra feature.

I don't even care if it's not an option in the vanilla game as long as it can be modded, because we all know that would be one of the first mods to come out.

Well, we all know that modding does seem to be something Alex is going to fully support and I'm sure that CPs will be found or made moddable, either by Alex or some very determined individuals... and yes, it'd probably be the first mod at this current point in the game's development, but just because it would be the first mod doesn't mean it should be a feature if it would go against what Alex is trying to present. If he feels okay with it though, he will... but, I think that's for him to decide... and right now the CPs are letting him get you to play in a style he believes is best for what he's trying to achieve, and for that none of us can fault him, no matter if we agree with him or not.
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