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Author Topic: Torpedo arm timer  (Read 3673 times)

Nimaniel

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Torpedo arm timer
« on: November 13, 2012, 06:36:28 AM »

May seem like a small thing, but I feel it is important to move away from the ramming / point blank torpedo strikes that are a bit silly, and take out capital ships too easily.

Torpedos should not arm until they have been in flight for a set duration. This is mostly a gameplay issue (see above), but also makes perfect sense, since the firing ship does not want the torpedos to detonate too close to itself.

Interestingly this also leads to the possibility for having different torpedo types, with flight speed, arm time and damage being different.

A visual indicator for when torpedos have armed would be a nice touch, allowing the tactic for flying towards and into the torpedos BEFORE they arm, and also giving players a chance to see why torpedos do not detonate sometimes. A flashing light increases in flash frequency until it goes solid (armed), or something like that.
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xenoargh

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Re: Torpedo arm timer
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2012, 06:39:02 AM »

Technically, this is already possible by using a MIRV for that weapon type :-)
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silentstormpt

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Re: Torpedo arm timer
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2012, 07:46:30 AM »

True, but i wouldnt mind it added to BOMB types aswell without resorting to create yet another MIRV missile type.
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Thaago

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Re: Torpedo arm timer
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2012, 08:35:12 AM »

I think this would be neat from a modding perspective, but I don't really see the gameplay reason for it in vanilla. Torpedoes are very powerful, but only if they hit a non-shielded region and aren't shot down by PD (or the craft launching them obliterated trying to close...).

I can also see it being extremely frustrating for a player to release a torpedo "too close" (or for the AI to do it) and have one of their only shots be a dud.
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Plasmatic

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Re: Torpedo arm timer
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2012, 03:57:30 AM »

I think this would be neat from a modding perspective, but I don't really see the gameplay reason for it in vanilla. Torpedoes are very powerful, but only if they hit a non-shielded region and aren't shot down by PD (or the craft launching them obliterated trying to close...).

I can also see it being extremely frustrating for a player to release a torpedo "too close" (or for the AI to do it) and have one of their only shots be a dud.

the whole notion of firing pointblank is pretty silly.. given the vastness of space, weapons would presumably have hundreds (if not thousands) of kilometers of range (limited by sensors I guess), why would you want to be point blank? and torpedoes by definition are very big power explosives.. the liklyhood of you surviving your own torpedo volley even if it didn't directly strike you would be 0 to null in a point blank scenario.

That said.. this is a game, which basically makes all the above moot.

But! I agree with the TS.. I would like to see torpedoes with an arming timer.
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Aleskander

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Re: Torpedo arm timer
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2012, 03:10:44 PM »

1.Torpedoes are meant to be used from a long distance away IRL, this doesn't work in SF because of shields and PD, which ships IRL don't really have. If you want torpedoes to have some sort of stealth mechanic, this would work.
2.Torpedoes IRL don't have to have an arming timer. Derp.
3.Shooting point blank has its risks. You have to be able to get in and get out safely, and most missiles do have an explosion radius, so you will deal damage to yourself.
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Reshy

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Re: Torpedo arm timer
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2012, 03:28:07 PM »

the whole notion of firing pointblank is pretty silly.. given the vastness of space, weapons would presumably have hundreds (if not thousands) of kilometers of range (limited by sensors I guess), why would you want to be point blank? and torpedoes by definition are very big power explosives.. the liklyhood of you surviving your own torpedo volley even if it didn't directly strike you would be 0 to null in a point blank scenario.

Shaped explosive charges could hand-wave it away.
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Plasmatic

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Re: Torpedo arm timer
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2012, 08:33:09 AM »

the whole notion of firing pointblank is pretty silly.. given the vastness of space, weapons would presumably have hundreds (if not thousands) of kilometers of range (limited by sensors I guess), why would you want to be point blank? and torpedoes by definition are very big power explosives.. the liklyhood of you surviving your own torpedo volley even if it didn't directly strike you would be 0 to null in a point blank scenario.

Shaped explosive charges could hand-wave it away.

"To every action there is always opposed an equal reaction"

Shaped charge or not, Something is going to come flying at you with the same force it exerted in the other direction, whether its a shockwave or shrapnel
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Reshy

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Re: Torpedo arm timer
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2012, 10:20:04 AM »

the whole notion of firing pointblank is pretty silly.. given the vastness of space, weapons would presumably have hundreds (if not thousands) of kilometers of range (limited by sensors I guess), why would you want to be point blank? and torpedoes by definition are very big power explosives.. the liklyhood of you surviving your own torpedo volley even if it didn't directly strike you would be 0 to null in a point blank scenario.

Shaped explosive charges could hand-wave it away.

"To every action there is always opposed an equal reaction"

Shaped charge or not, Something is going to come flying at you with the same force it exerted in the other direction, whether its a shockwave or shrapnel

Uh, that's about Kinetic force.  Which would be absorbed by the launcher like how the spring in a gun absorbs the impact of firing the bullet.  It has nothing to do with explosives.
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naufrago

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Re: Torpedo arm timer
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2012, 11:33:11 AM »

the whole notion of firing pointblank is pretty silly.. given the vastness of space, weapons would presumably have hundreds (if not thousands) of kilometers of range (limited by sensors I guess), why would you want to be point blank? and torpedoes by definition are very big power explosives.. the liklyhood of you surviving your own torpedo volley even if it didn't directly strike you would be 0 to null in a point blank scenario.

Shaped explosive charges could hand-wave it away.

"To every action there is always opposed an equal reaction"

Shaped charge or not, Something is going to come flying at you with the same force it exerted in the other direction, whether its a shockwave or shrapnel

Uh, that's about Kinetic force.  Which would be absorbed by the launcher like how the spring in a gun absorbs the impact of firing the bullet.  It has nothing to do with explosives.

Unfortunately, you're completely wrong. Imagine a rocket, how it uses fuel to generate fire and spit it out a nozzle to create propulsion. Now imagine that process sped up a million times, burning up all the fuel at once and spitting it out the nozzle. That's basically what a shaped charge is. However containers can't contain all that force at once, so it will usually fragment and get blown back as shrapnel. Even if it stays together, the container will fly away with a kinetic energy equal to the force of the explosion. It has everything to do with kinetic energy.

Obviously there's more to it than that, but that's the gist of it.


EDIT: There are videos of people like SWAT using breaching charges that use shaped explosives to blow holes in walls without causing too much collateral damage. No one stands directly behind the explosive because the water container used to absorb the shockwave gets knocked back with about as much force as gets directed into the wall.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2012, 11:43:46 AM by naufrago »
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Aleskander

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Re: Torpedo arm timer
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2012, 01:19:15 PM »

It's kind of moot since missiles already have an explosion radius. If you want that increased, that's a whole different topic.
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Reshy

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Re: Torpedo arm timer
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2012, 01:35:13 PM »

the whole notion of firing pointblank is pretty silly.. given the vastness of space, weapons would presumably have hundreds (if not thousands) of kilometers of range (limited by sensors I guess), why would you want to be point blank? and torpedoes by definition are very big power explosives.. the liklyhood of you surviving your own torpedo volley even if it didn't directly strike you would be 0 to null in a point blank scenario.

Shaped explosive charges could hand-wave it away.

"To every action there is always opposed an equal reaction"

Shaped charge or not, Something is going to come flying at you with the same force it exerted in the other direction, whether its a shockwave or shrapnel

Uh, that's about Kinetic force.  Which would be absorbed by the launcher like how the spring in a gun absorbs the impact of firing the bullet.  It has nothing to do with explosives.

Unfortunately, you're completely wrong. Imagine a rocket, how it uses fuel to generate fire and spit it out a nozzle to create propulsion. Now imagine that process sped up a million times, burning up all the fuel at once and spitting it out the nozzle. That's basically what a shaped charge is. However containers can't contain all that force at once, so it will usually fragment and get blown back as shrapnel. Even if it stays together, the container will fly away with a kinetic energy equal to the force of the explosion. It has everything to do with kinetic energy.

Obviously there's more to it than that, but that's the gist of it.


EDIT: There are videos of people like SWAT using breaching charges that use shaped explosives to blow holes in walls without causing too much collateral damage. No one stands directly behind the explosive because the water container used to absorb the shockwave gets knocked back with about as much force as gets directed into the wall.


but it'd be much lesser then the full brunt, maybe enough that you could hand wave it away and say that the fragments can't damage the armor/hull.
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Nimaniel

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Re: Torpedo arm timer
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2013, 10:38:08 PM »

To reiterate the important bit: For _gameplay_ reasons smaller ships should not be able to take out larger ships by kissing them (ramming). The fact that the smaller ship is likely to die is beside the point. Taking down a larger ship should take effort, and when commanding a capital ship, smaller ships should show it some respect, as opposed to the capital ships living in constant fear of kamikaze torpedo boats.

Regarding IRL torpedo's not having arm timers: WWII torpedo's did not have arm timers, but they also detonated prematurely sometimes. Makes you wonder how the firing captain & crew felt about that. I don't know about modern day torpedos.

Anyway, suggestion shamelessly bumped.
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