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Author Topic: Project Valkyrie V1.5 [0.65.2a - Vanilla Friendly] Outdated.  (Read 322405 times)

Dark.Revenant

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Re: Project Valkyrie V1.3C [0.6.2a - Vanilla Balanced] UPDATE! 14/05/25
« Reply #435 on: September 17, 2014, 05:38:56 PM »

Project Valkyrie doesn't play nice with some mods; for example, the weapon damage smoke thing overlaps with the SS+ effect for basically double the lung cancer.

However, there is nothing in Project Valkyrie that would cause the Randomizer to crash like that; that's entirely a SS+ bug.



Unfortunately, I cannot fix it because I do not know why that crash occurs.  I have looked for over an hour and found absolutely nothing in the code that would lead to a crash and not even my most strenuous tests (like spawning thousands templar fleets in the campaign) resulted in a crash.  I cannot reproduce it and wouldn't know why it happened even if I did.
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Sundog

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Re: Project Valkyrie V1.3C [0.6.2a - Vanilla Balanced] UPDATE! 14/05/25
« Reply #436 on: September 17, 2014, 06:46:45 PM »

It's a bit of a long shot, but that exception and stack trace remind me of the janino issue I encountered here.

I have no idea why that issue would cause an incompatibility between Templars and Valkyrians though. Neither SS+ or Templars could cause that issue since they aren't compiled at runtime, and I can't think of any likely reason for Templars to cause Valks to run a broken script.

But then, I cant fathom why Valks would cause Templars to throw a legitimate out of bounds exception either.

Dark.Revenant

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Re: Project Valkyrie V1.3C [0.6.2a - Vanilla Balanced] UPDATE! 14/05/25
« Reply #437 on: September 17, 2014, 07:09:59 PM »

It's not and it doesn't.

This problem is purely a logic error in SS+ itself that I cannot reproduce (yes, even with valks active).  Keep in mind the Templar fleet generation is in SS+, not the Templars jar.
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ValkyriaL

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Re: Project Valkyrie V1.3C [0.6.2a - Vanilla Balanced] UPDATE! 14/05/25
« Reply #438 on: September 17, 2014, 10:19:50 PM »

Most of these things are very likely fixed in the dev, i used to have multiple files that did the exact same thing "weapon smoke thingy" which was been fixed some time back, as well as some other files than have all been put into one for better compatibility.

Honestly, i cannot reproduce any of these crashes, so it has to be 1.3 that has just given up on life waiting for 1.4 to take it's place. :)
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CopperCoyote

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Re: Project Valkyrie V1.3C [0.6.2a - Vanilla Balanced] UPDATE! 14/05/25
« Reply #439 on: September 17, 2014, 11:23:27 PM »

My argument that the lancers are a step down from needlers is based on both using them and thinking about the ramifications of the damage type change.

The TL;DR is: changing the damage type is a huge nerf

Lots of blah blah blah number stuff explaining why:
Spoiler

I think needlers and lances have the same OP cost, the same range, and nearly identical accuracy. So those variables fall out of the equation.

Armor and shields reduce damage in different ways.:
Shields are easy to understand. If it has a .25 efficiency then every hit no matter how big or small is reduced by 75%. I don't think any ships actually have a .25, but why i'm using it will make sense in a moment. This means a raw 4 damage shot will do 1 point of damage, and a raw 4000 damage shot will do 1000 damage to flux.

Armor reduces damage by the amount of armor you have. It does cap out however. If a shot's damage is smaller than the armor then 25% of the damage will still get through. This damage is absorbed by the armor first and any not stopped will do hull damage. Damage stopped by armor will reduce the remaining armor in the hit cell. Surrounding cells also contribute armor but to simplify things let's imagine we're shooting a fighter that has only 1 cell. Let's imagine this fighter has 100 armor. The 4 damage shot will still only do 1 damage reducing the armor to 99. The next 96 shots will do 1 damage to the armor as well. The 97th should do 2 damage to armor and 1 to hull. The 98th should be a damage to armor and 3 to hull then the armor is gone. The 4K shot will do 3900 damage to the armor reducing the armor to 0 and doing 3800 damage to the hull (the fighter probably dies too).

As you can see armor is much more complicated, but if you have enough of it, then it is more effective at first.

Now lets consider damage types. The damage modifier is applied before the shield or armor calculations. All types do 100% damage to hull. Energy type is 1X against all defenses. Kinetic is 2X against shields and 1/2X against armor. Explosive is opposite at 1/2X versus shields and 2X versus armor. Frag is 1/4 against both shields and armor.

Okay. Now why does all this matter?

It matters for shields because changing the damage type from kinetic to energy flatout cuts the DPS in half. If lancers and needlers had equal raw DPS then against shields lancers have half the DPS of needers. I think it ends up being that against shields needlers end up doing 60% more DPS because they don't have equal raw DPS.

It matters for armor because as we saw on the fighter's armor example the smaller the shot the more effective the armor. Once we take damage type into consideration it barely matters for damage values that small. I think lancers and needlers do something like 30 damage per bullet. For values that small the armor will reduce it to 1/4 damage for armor values as low as 60 for Ex, 30 for En, and 15 for Ki. That is a tiny amount of armor for a lot of effect on both families of weapons. Sure the lancer will do twice the DPS to armor as needlers, but it's still doing 1/4 the listed DPS until there is basically no armor left anywhere.

The end result is the only ships the lancer is better at killing by itself (and not running out of ammo) are the more frail frigates and fighters. The same ships that are nimble enough and small enough that a spraying weapon with some accuracy issues really shouldn't be used against anyway. I suppose it could eat up buffalos better too, but that's just a matter of convenience as they aren't threats anyway.
[close]

One way to make it a side grade from needlers is to make the ammo and damage per shot the same but reduce time between shots by about 40% (compared to needler). That way it'd be nearly as good a shield breaker, but have much more DPS once you've opened up the armor with an explosive weapon. While it would be better at armor removal it'd still be so bad you'd run out your ammo before you've started doing hull damage to most destroyers.
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Dark.Revenant

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Re: Project Valkyrie V1.3C [0.6.2a - Vanilla Balanced] UPDATE! 14/05/25
« Reply #440 on: September 17, 2014, 11:53:40 PM »

Some quick numbers:

Light Needler: 500 K burst, 340 seconds of ammo, 294 Dmg/sec vs. shields, 147 Dmg/sec vs. hull, and on average 11 Dmg/sec vs. armor.  That's a flux ratio of 2.5 against shields, 1.25 against hull, and 0.1 against armor.

Light Lancer: 450 En burst, 562 seconds of ammo, 160 Dmg/sec vs. shields, 160 Dmg/sec vs. hull, and on average 27 Dmg/sec vs. armor.  That's a flux ratio of 1.13 against shields, 1.13 against hull, and 0.19 against armor.

Light Needler is really excellent against shields, okay against hull, and trash against armor.  Light Lancer is okay against shields, okay against hull (but slightly less efficient than the needler), and still not that good against armor.  It may be more than double the armor damage up from a needler, but 27 Dmg/sec is still so low that it's barely worth mentioning.  Let's look at another gun.

Light Assault Gun: 40 HE burst, 100 seconds of ammo, 80 Dmg/sec vs. shields, 160 Dmg/sec vs. hull, and on average 65 Dmg/sec vs. armor.  That's a flux ratio of 0.5 against shields, 1 against hull, and 0.41 against armor.

Even a Light Mortar does more armor DPS than a Lancer.  Simply put, the Lancer is not acceptable as an armor buster.  You could make the argument that it's a general purpose weapon, but if you had the choice between two lancers (320 Dmg/sec vs. shields, 320 Dmg/sec vs. hull, and 54 Dmg/sec vs. armor) and a needler plus an assault gun (374 Dmg/sec vs. shields, 307 Dmg/sec vs. hull, and 76 Dmg/sec vs. armor) you would almost always pick the latter.

For the Lancer to remain competitive, it should have fewer shots that individually do higher damage.  A half-sized burst with double damage (and flux) per shot should do the trick, bringing it up to an average of 34 Dmg/sec vs. armor.  It would still do less damage than the needler-assault gun combination but have the advantage of faster shots and better range.


Fun fact: Aside from missiles and bombs, the Heavy Mauler is the best medium slot (or small slot) armor penetrator in the game.  It comes just third when you include mods; only the Gale Cannon (by a small margin) and the Longinus Heavy Laser are higher.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 12:00:10 AM by Dark.Revenant »
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HELMUT

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Re: Project Valkyrie V1.3C [0.6.2a - Vanilla Balanced] UPDATE! 14/05/25
« Reply #441 on: September 18, 2014, 06:14:10 AM »

Armor reduces damage by the amount of armor you have.

He, at least i learned something today. That's why Lucian found the Lancer underwhelming then...
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pigreko

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Re: Project Valkyrie V1.3C [0.6.2a - Vanilla Balanced] UPDATE! 14/05/25
« Reply #442 on: September 19, 2014, 06:32:01 AM »

Hey boss, is there a way to spawn the royal armada by force? maybe with the console. Cause I cannot find it anywhere, and it was chasing me some time ago, but then suddenly stopped, and I ended up unleashing my frustration at the templars and their martyr ships. At some point of my play thru something happened, cause they are now neutral to me.
I never battled a valkyrian fleet cause until few cycles ago I was still building my weaponry to face them... and now they are gone without a fight. I searched in the forum and looks like they cannot lose to another Ai fleet, so I'm at a loss.

I was now thinking: should I check the save game file for a trace of the fleet? I'll try that, hoping it is actually code named as royal armada or similar :D
Still I was neutral without reason at some point, and I'm well over 30.
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ValkyriaL

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Re: Project Valkyrie V1.3C [0.6.2a - Vanilla Balanced] UPDATE! 14/05/25
« Reply #443 on: September 19, 2014, 06:40:16 AM »

The fleet is code named "Ra" and in 1.3, it Can be killed by Ai fleets. which means its either dead and you have the ships in your storage or shipyard. or its still flying around out there somewhere with like 1 fighter.

In 1.4, only you can kill it, like it was meant to be.
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pigreko

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Re: Project Valkyrie V1.3C [0.6.2a - Vanilla Balanced] UPDATE! 14/05/25
« Reply #444 on: September 19, 2014, 07:18:54 AM »

UHM I cannot open the campaign.zip, somehow... and I've checked all the 3 valkyrian space stations orbiting corvus to no avail. Mmmmmh I guess I'll reset and replay it with the 1.4 .
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ValkyriaL

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Re: Project Valkyrie V1.3C [0.6.2a - Vanilla Balanced] UPDATE! 14/05/25
« Reply #445 on: September 19, 2014, 07:28:40 AM »

That will be fairly difficult considering 1.4 isn't out yet. ;D
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pigreko

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Re: Project Valkyrie V1.3C [0.6.2a - Vanilla Balanced] UPDATE! 14/05/25
« Reply #446 on: September 19, 2014, 07:53:37 AM »

Yeah I meant I'll wait and play ;)
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pigreko

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Re: Project Valkyrie V1.3C [0.6.2a - Vanilla Balanced] UPDATE! 14/05/25
« Reply #447 on: September 19, 2014, 11:22:24 AM »

OK! lacking patience, I did reset the campaign, did used the console to give me back some of my stuff, and finally engaged the armada. Result = a crash just before finishing the Royal ship [Vatican.Mk.IV]. I recreated it, and it is generated by the use of the ship system. The actual report looks like this:

Fatal: tried to access class data.shipsystems.script.FakeEntity from class data.shipsystems.scripts.ValkyriaSystem

I'm running on a mac, just saying.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2014, 02:02:46 PM by pigreko »
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valefore

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Re: Project Valkyrie V1.3C [0.6.2a - Vanilla Balanced] UPDATE! 14/05/25
« Reply #448 on: September 25, 2014, 09:05:39 PM »

OK! lacking patience, I did reset the campaign, did used the console to give me back some of my stuff, and finally engaged the armada. Result = a crash just before finishing the Royal ship [Vatican.Mk.IV]. I recreated it, and it is generated by the use of the ship system. The actual report looks like this:

Fatal: tried to access class data.shipsystems.script.FakeEntity from class data.shipsystems.scripts.ValkyriaSystem

I'm running on a mac, just saying.

Hey. I had this problem too but was putting it off because I was busy and passive but I finally did some experimenting. I couldn't understand anything about the ship system coding though so I started with running Valkyrie alone to check if its due to a mod crash.

Well it turns out running Valkyrie alone does not cause the crash. I do get the crash when I run it with Citadel 0.7 though. Perhaps they both use a "FakeEntity"? If you are also running it with Citadel, I guess you would either need to disable one of them or change the Vatican IV's ship system to something else.
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Sabaton

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Re: Project Valkyrie V1.3C [0.6.2a - Vanilla Balanced] UPDATE! 14/05/25
« Reply #449 on: September 26, 2014, 02:49:52 PM »

Seeing as it's fairly polished and developed...
What are your future plans for this mod?
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