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Author Topic: The Lore Corner  (Read 175122 times)

David

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Re: The Lore Corner
« Reply #300 on: December 13, 2015, 02:36:22 PM »

That there are no post-Collapse designs other than modification jobs does not follow from the statement that there are no recent low-tech designs aside from certain modification jobs.

That's why I'm asking.

We're going to have to find out by seeing what future updates to Starsector hold for us :)
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Clockwork Owl

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Re: The Lore Corner
« Reply #301 on: December 13, 2015, 06:04:15 PM »

We're going to have to find out by seeing what future updates to Starsector hold for us :)

Like you're not in charge of it...
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Linnis

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Re: The Lore Corner
« Reply #302 on: December 31, 2015, 12:43:27 AM »

Dat Ludd world perk really make me think stations can change hands in the future.

Market economies are computer incorperated so any number can be built and still function in the economy.

David saying new ship developemnts are maybe a thing.


I think ship building, modification, and design will be a player thing. Confirmed!

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SpacePoliticianAndaZealot

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Re: The Lore Corner
« Reply #303 on: January 02, 2016, 06:08:04 AM »

If we were to compare the three Epochs to armoured fighting vehicles made throughout the 20th ceuntry, which one would be a good example of Core Epoch design and/or doctrine?
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David

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Re: The Lore Corner
« Reply #304 on: January 02, 2016, 07:44:33 AM »

If we were to compare the three Epochs to armoured fighting vehicles made throughout the 20th ceuntry, which one would be a good example of Core Epoch design and/or doctrine?

I think a naval analogy is much more apt, though still is only loosely applied.

So: Lowtech = WW1 & previous, midline = WW2, hightech = post-WW2.

(Armoured fighting vehicles would be much more limited, and I guess for the sake of an interesting scale we'd have to restrict ourselves to just WW2 'cause that's where all the interesting variety is. I mean, very very roughly, WW1 was like "what's a tank! Oh, this is a tank" and post-WW2 was like "it's all about the MBT". Though, side-note, the doctrine around how various nations used the MBT is indeed fascinating, I mean, just take Sweden's turretless thing vs. Israel's Merkerva, and wossit turret stabilizer technology and fascinating developments in armour and active countermeasures ... but so much of it is only tangentially inapplicable to the mood Starsector is trying to evoke.  ... So yeah, let's stick with the naval metaphor.)
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SpacePoliticianAndaZealot

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Re: The Lore Corner
« Reply #305 on: January 17, 2016, 02:09:57 PM »

Well, navy is not exactly my niche, but it makes sense if I look through the submarine designs  :-[

Something that bugs me for quite a while now:
  • What is the oldest ship design present in game? What is the oldest weapon in game?
  • Ion weaponry belongs in the Expansion Epoch, right?
  • Are the Hybrid weapon mounts a Core Epoch thing? Are the Universal mounts, too, or are those some late Expansion gimmick?
  • Is it me, or does the Core Epoch feel kinda neglected (in general) in regard to the other two Epochs? Or is it simply that (in)significant compared to the two? (apologies for the autistic fit, but the Core ships are most interesting to me, yet most of them feel kinda meh  :-X
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Aeson

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Re: The Lore Corner
« Reply #306 on: January 17, 2016, 09:52:11 PM »

Quote
What is the oldest ship design present in game?
Lore-wise, probably the Onslaught. The basic design appears to have predated shields as the shield generator is known to have been a "much" later addition, the Onslaught is the only ship known to have had its FTL drive upgraded during a design revision which occurred at some point well after first entering service (at least that I can recall), and the description of the Thermal Pulse Cannon implies that the Onslaught design is roughly contemporary with or predates the introduction of modular energy weapons (since modular energy weapons are, according to the Codex entry for the Thermal Pulse Cannon, too new to have been trusted by Domain naval architects at the time that the design was created). The Enforcer's codex entry suggests that the Enforcer design might be contemporary with the Onslaught, though it's possible that it was simply designed under the assumption that it'd be operating with Onslaughts and with logistical convenience in mind.

Quote
What is the oldest weapon in game?
Difficult to say based off of what's in the Codex. Certain weapons don't represent a specific weapon system so much as a family of similar weapons (Light Machine Guns are one example; Light Autocannons might be another since the bore diameter given in the codex entry appears to be the normal bore diameter for weapons classed as light autocannons rather than the bore diameter of the specific weapon called a Light Autocannon), and some of these weapon families could reasonably be thought to have been among the earliest spaceship weapons to enter service; whether or not any such ancient weapons are actually in service or in circulation within the sector is not something that is possible to establish, given the information we have available.

As far as weapons which we know to represent a specific weapon system go, I'd suggest that the Thermal Pulse Cannon is likely to be among the oldest designs in service in the sector. Even if it's not the oldest weapon currently in service, though, the TPC is almost certainly the oldest of the large energy weapons currently in service (other than the Onslaught, no known designs predating the Expansion Epoch can even mount large energy weapons) and probably at least close to being the oldest of the energy weapons (mining lasers, mining blasters, and the various types of PD laser might predate it, maybe). Mark IX Autocannons are another contender for being among the oldest weapon designs in the game. They were rediscovered post-Collapse and examination of the blueprints lead them to be considered so obsolete that nobody bothered trying to build one for years, they are suggested in the Codex entry to be a development of some of the earliest Domain-era weapon designs, the Codex entry suggests that the weapon might be bulky for its capabilities (at least by comparison with modern weapons), and the sprite's appearances suggest that the weapon is quite old.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2016, 09:57:27 PM by Aeson »
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Taverius

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Re: The Lore Corner
« Reply #307 on: January 18, 2016, 03:02:03 PM »

I bet the oldest is the hound.

And sure, low-tech has few ships - I think that may be by design, as they're from a time when things were deeply utilitarian and only the most useful designs made it to modern times.

Though the extra low-tech ships in SS+ fit in pretty nicely so there's certainly gameplay-space for a few more. Just don't take ship count too seriously, remember low-tech has no carriers, because its from before fighters.
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Aeson

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Re: The Lore Corner
« Reply #308 on: January 18, 2016, 06:52:07 PM »

Quote
Just don't take ship count too seriously, remember low-tech has no carriers, because its from before fighters.
The Venture is a low-tech carrier and the Talon is a low-tech fighter. Buffalo Mk IIs and Condors are also low-tech ships which are almost certainly predated by fightercraft - after all, the Buffalo II is a conversion of the now-midline Buffalo freighter and the Condor is a carrier conversion of the Tarsus.

Possibly you meant the somewhat more supportable claim that Mastery Epoch predates fightercraft, though I'd point out that the only three direct pieces of information we have indicating when fighters were introduced, at least that I can recall, are that the Onslaught, an extremely old design, predates fightercraft, that Broadswords are an "early epoch" design, and that the Conquest, which appears to be an early Core Epoch design, predates the popularization of fightercraft; a fourth piece of information is the Venture, which appears to be an older low-tech cruiser, has a flight deck as a standard feature. None of that information contradicts the idea that early fighters like the Talon and Broadsword are from the late Mastery Epoch; indeed, the Broadsword's claim to be from the "early" epoch might be taken to be confirmation that the Broadsword's design predates the Core or Expansion Epochs and so must be from the (probably late) Mastery Epoch.
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Taverius

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Re: The Lore Corner
« Reply #309 on: January 18, 2016, 07:20:26 PM »

I'm pretty sure epochs are not a thing anymore.

The Venture is also mid-tech, not low-tech - unless David says otherwise I take the presence of a modular energy mount as confirmation.
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MesoTroniK

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Re: The Lore Corner
« Reply #310 on: January 18, 2016, 07:37:43 PM »

Venture is low tech, no doubt.
Spoiler
    "engineSlots": [
        {
            "angle": 180,
            "contrailSize": 64,
            "length": 64,
            "location": [
                -76,
                83
            ],
            "style": "LOW_TECH",
            "width": 20
        },
        {
            "angle": 180,
            "contrailSize": 64,
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            "location": [
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            ],
            "style": "LOW_TECH",
            "width": 20
        },
        {
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            "location": [
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            "style": "LOW_TECH",
            "width": 16
        },
        {
            "angle": 180,
            "contrailSize": 64,
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            "location": [
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            "style": "LOW_TECH",
            "width": 16
        },
        {
            "angle": 180,
            "contrailSize": 64,
            "length": 96,
            "location": [
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            "style": "LOW_TECH",
            "width": 16
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        {
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            "location": [
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            "style": "LOW_TECH",
            "width": 16
        }
    ],
    "height": 190,
    "hullId": "venture",
    "hullName": "Venture",
    "hullSize": "CRUISER",
    "shieldCenter": [
        0,
        0
    ],
    "shieldRadius": 135,
    "spriteName": "graphics/ships/venture.png",
    "style": "LOW_TECH",
[close]
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 07:59:07 PM by MesoTroniK »
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Aeson

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Re: The Lore Corner
« Reply #311 on: January 18, 2016, 09:15:46 PM »

I'm pretty sure epochs are not a thing anymore.
Epochs are still a thing. Hammerheads are described in the Codex as a "Core Epoch midline destroyer;" Tempests, Sunders, and Hurricane MIRV Launchers are all Expansion Epoch technology. The Mastery Epoch isn't directly attested anywhere within the game anymore, at least as far as I'm aware, though Broadswords are said to be an 'early epoch' design, Wasps are said to handle 'early epoch' fighters well, Thermal Pulse Cannons are "a bulky energy weapon from the early epoch," and Mark IX Autocannons reference what appears to be a different early epoch.

The part about epochs that isn't a thing anymore is the strict equivalency between a given epoch and a given tech style, i.e. the old Mastery Epoch = low-tech, Core Epoch = midline, Expansion Epoch = high-tech.

The Venture is also mid-tech, not low-tech - unless David says otherwise I take the presence of a modular energy mount as confirmation.
In addition to what MesoTroniK posted, there's the fact that the Venture's protection scheme is far more in line with the normal low-tech protection scheme (high hull and armor strength, poor shields) than with the normal midline protection scheme (average hull and armor strength, average shields). The Venture is also pretty slow, whereas midline and high-tech cruisers tend to emphasize speed.

I would further add that the presence of a modular energy mount does not prove that the Venture is not low-tech. There are in fact two other low-tech ships with energy mounts - the Buffalo Mk II (which has two small energy mounts) and the Mule (which has a medium energy mount); the Shepherd, also a low-tech ship, has a small universal mount (which is unique for a low-tech ship; all other universal mounts appear on midline or high-tech ships). We also know from the description of the Thermal Pulse Cannon that modular energy mounts were introduced at around the same time as and probably slightly earlier than the TPCs were added to the Onslaught design (or possibly at around the same time that the Onslaught design was created, depending on whether or not you feel that the TPCs are an original part of the Onslaught design or were added during a design revision such as the one in the Onslaught's codex description which added shields, upgraded the FTL drives, and reduced crew requirements), as a part of the reason why the TPC is built into the Onslaught is that the naval architects responsible did not trust modular energy mounts enough to make use of them rather than that modular energy mounts simply were not an option at the time.
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Clockwork Owl

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Re: The Lore Corner
« Reply #312 on: January 19, 2016, 06:35:46 PM »

There are only two options - LOW_TECH and HIGH_TECH on that thing MesoTroniK posted. LOW_TECH corresponds to red flame and shield color, and HIGH_TECH means blue flame and shield.

If it has an energy mount, it's no low-tech.
Exception of course is the Onslaught with its bulky, built-in energy cannons. I took it as their technology wasn't sufficient for modular energy weapons back then.
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MesoTroniK

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Re: The Lore Corner
« Reply #313 on: January 19, 2016, 06:46:05 PM »

There are only two options - LOW_TECH and HIGH_TECH on that thing MesoTroniK posted. LOW_TECH corresponds to red flame and shield color, and HIGH_TECH means blue flame and shield.

If it has an energy mount, it's no low-tech.
Exception of course is the Onslaught with its bulky, built-in energy cannons. I took it as their technology wasn't sufficient for modular energy weapons back then.

Incorrect:

    "hullId": "eagle",
    "hullName": "Eagle",
    "hullSize": "CRUISER",
    "shieldCenter": [
        25,
        0
    ],
    "shieldRadius": 155,
    "spriteName": "graphics/ships/eagle/eagle_base.png",
    "style": "MIDLINE",

Hull style also determines much more than what you stated. Hull and engine styles do not lie, the Venture is low tech.

Clockwork Owl

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Re: The Lore Corner
« Reply #314 on: January 19, 2016, 07:22:30 PM »

It seems I had wrong info then...
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