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Author Topic: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 300742 times)

Catra

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Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #120 on: September 22, 2012, 09:00:25 AM »

and i feel you're vastly downplaying it so people just go along with it with the least amount of fuss, your blanket statement above kindof proves that.


Ich schmeiß mich weg!
And I feel you try to make it sound as if Alex was some kind of evil dictator, trying to raise our taxes and cut our liberties  and sell it to us as progress, and you are the only one to notice. Is that how you feel?


Besides, the numbers a clear: On a eagle you need 13 Op to cancel the current effect, but only 9 for insulated engines, which cancels the double engine damage. On a Aurora the difference is 22:9. On a Medusa 10:6. On a tempest 6:3. On a Paragon 32:15.  So it's clearly a buff for Augmented engines.



Je comprends très peu l'allemand :/ je suis désolé.

io sono interessato a quello che si sta gettando però!



the downside isn't double engine damage, it's double repair rate, which you would be looking at the automated repair unit for, which only brings it down to 1.5x longer to bring back up, costs are as follows:

capitals: ARU costs 35 OP cost to negate aug engine: 15 ( onslaught ) - 25 ( odyssey )
cruisers: ARU cost: 25 OP cost to negate aug engine: 12 ( dominator ) - 18 ( apogee )
destroyers: ARU cost: 10 cost to negate aug engine: 7 ( hammerhead ) - 10  ( low mid high are the same )
frigates: ARU cost: 5 cost to negate aug engine: 3 ( lasher ) - 6 ( brawler )

so, you really only lose out on the brawler, break even on most of the destroyers then go down hill fast from there.

inb4 " you also lose out on the tempest and hyperion! " yes you do, but neither of those vessels are really worth considering to put aug engines on in the first place.

Quote
Seems as if I missed a lot.  More debate?  Could I join in?

only if you know another language so you could exclaim something and leave your reader very confused and slightly amused when it's translated. :P
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Alex

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Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #121 on: September 22, 2012, 09:26:24 AM »

@Catra: I understand what you're saying. The potential downside is greater, or at least more concentrated in time, but on the other hand, it can be much reduced with skill. But - that sounds like a very good outcome to me.

I don't think getting shot in the engines with missiles is random. It's either a glaring piloting error or a lack of awareness (i.e., burn driving somewhere it wasn't a good idea to be). Or a matchup where you can't avoid it - i.e., no omni shields and no rear-facing PD vs many Salamanders - which is again not random. Some luck is involved, certainly, but no more than for anything else.

Comparing the ARU like that misses the fact that it has an impact beyond just engine repair. In general, breaking things down into an OP comparison tends to oversimplify them. It's useful, certainly, but it's rarely definitive. (Another point: the flux dissipation penalty can't be compensated for if you're already at full vents - which is fairly common for smaller ships.)

I don't think Insulated Engines should be discounted, either - they don't affect the exact same stat, but they still affect the end result. Auxiliary Thrusters is another mod that has an impact. Resistant Flux Conduits neutralize one of the the primary sources of flameouts. Etc, etc. I just don't think it can be broken down that cleanly.

There's also a new factor to consider: skill effects - which, for existing skills, affect all of the stats involved.
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Catra

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Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #122 on: September 22, 2012, 11:15:31 AM »

Quote
I don't think getting shot in the engines with missiles is random.

pilums coming out of the FoW (either due to some flanking ship or something behind you, or they are coming back for another try) is random.
salamander speed boost, while it goes off at the same time, is random because we can't see WHEN it will off.
you can't even tell when a ship is or isn't going to launch a missile, so yes it is a rather random.

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(Another point: the flux dissipation penalty can't be compensated for if you're already at full vents - which is fairly common for smaller ships.)

this is not a point at all, they are already very much compensated for when at full vents. see the graph, you do not need much to get back to where you were( actually, some of them ARE gains, albeit extremely small ones ).

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Comparing the ARU like that misses the fact that it has an impact beyond just engine repair.

since it's JUST the engine repair that's relevant to the discussion, there's no reason to drag anything else into it.

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I don't think Insulated Engines should be discounted, either

i wasn't discounting them, just showing him that "hey, you're using the wrong numbers."

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he potential downside is greater, or at least more concentrated in time, but on the other hand, it can be much reduced with skill.


its not even just the potential downside, there's also the downside of just being unable to wade into combat, you actually HAVE to consider things more critically, whereas armour / shield mod users do not. this is where it's fairly inbalanced, one playstyle has to work a fair bit harder to achieve the same result that actually is EASIER for the other 2 as they aren't even at that bad of a disadvantage, as most of the ships that need to move quick either has a way to do so ( jets / burn drive ) are naturally fast (hound, anything high tech) can tele ( anything high tech ) or can have long range weapons ( just about everything above destroyer ).
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Talkie Toaster

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Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #123 on: September 22, 2012, 11:43:24 AM »

pilums coming out of the FoW (either due to some flanking ship or something behind you, or they are coming back for another try) is random.
salamander speed boost, while it goes off at the same time, is random because we can't see WHEN it will off.
you can't even tell when a ship is or isn't going to launch a missile, so yes it is a rather random.
That's not really random. You might not get the opportunity to react, but it's predictable (Pilums will be coming from the top half of the screen (or you've already seen them go past once and know they're coming back), you can see which ships have Salamanders from their loadout), negatable (PD) and suprise pilums can be countered by better scouting. You need tactical & strategic awareness; you can't just rely on agility to dodge all attacks with no notice. If your ship has no PD and you can't scout then it may not be a good idea to stick Augmented Engines on it and send it off on its own.

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its not even just the potential downside, there's also the downside of just being unable to wade into combat, you actually HAVE to consider things more critically, whereas armour / shield mod users do not. this is where it's fairly inbalanced, one playstyle has to work a fair bit harder to achieve the same result that actually is EASIER for the other 2 as they aren't even at that bad of a disadvantage, as most of the ships that need to move quick either has a way to do so ( jets / burn drive ) are naturally fast (hound, anything high tech) can tele ( anything high tech ) or can have long range weapons ( just about everything above destroyer ).
Speed is incredibly valuable thanks to the cap points. Having speedier ships gives you move FP, more range, more maneuverability and yet more speed in combat and is also useful on the system map. More speed lets you pick and choose which targets to engage and when to disengage, letting you drop shields & vent safely (so you don't need to take hits on armour to vent). Yes, you have to work more to perform to par with ships set up to armour/shield tank in a straight-up fight, but that's the price you pay for all the side benefits.

Really, all this change does is discourage slapping AE on a ship with poor PD and running out solo with it up to the fog of war; this is great, as it makes AE less of a must-have for rushing to cap points as the downside of 'maybe the ship gets flared out and lost' is a bigger one, and makes it harder to win early centre-point battles by rushing in with poorly-supported cruisers with AE. Equally, it makes second-wave ships with AE more viable.
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xenoargh

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Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #124 on: September 22, 2012, 12:01:20 PM »

This list is looking great, Alex! Really excited about this next build, it's going to take the game a big step towards feeling like a full-fledged RPG :) 

Any chance we're going to see a Mutablestat that can affect in-system travel speed for fleets yet?  Really want to do that as a System or via character skill, it's one of the few major gripes I've had with the campaign's feel lately :)
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Catra

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Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #125 on: September 22, 2012, 12:10:35 PM »

pilums coming from the front aren't a threat, read what i wrote in parentheses.

not all PD is as reliable at stopping missiles as flak is.

i very well know i can see the loadout, but thats not what i was talking about, im talking about the missile in the air, it's pseudo-random when it will slam into you, and you can sortof guess where its going to be, right up until it starts moving faster.

and if you read past the first line, you will notice that i brought up the points that there are ships with abilities that can outpace an aug engine ship in those regards.
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Alex

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Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #126 on: September 22, 2012, 12:13:11 PM »

This list is looking great, Alex! Really excited about this next build, it's going to take the game a big step towards feeling like a full-fledged RPG :) 

Thanks :)

Any chance we're going to see a Mutablestat that can affect in-system travel speed for fleets yet?  Really want to do that as a System or via character skill, it's one of the few major gripes I've had with the campaign's feel lately :)

Yep, that's already there (the "Navigation" skill uses it). A preview of the MutableCharacterStatsAPI - which will likely change some along the way:
Spoiler

   int getSkillPoints();
   int getAptitudePoints();
   void setSkillPoints(int points);
   void setAptitudePoints(int points);
   
   void addAptitudePoints(int points);
   void addSkillPoints(int points);
   void increaseSkill(String id);
   void increaseAptitude(String id);
   
   void setSkillLevel(String id, float level);
   void setAptitudeLevel(String id, float level);
   float getAptitudeLevel(String id);
   
   /**
    * Only returns whole numbers. Float is used for convenience to avoid some extra casting. Other methods work likewise.
    * @param id
    * @return
    */
   float getSkillLevel(String id);
   
   
   
   
   MutableStat getWeaponOPCostMult();
   StatBonus getShipOrdnancePointBonus();
   
   StatBonus getSmallWeaponOPCost();
   StatBonus getMediumWeaponOPCost();
   StatBonus getLargeWeaponOPCost();
   
   MutableStat getFleetPoints();
   
   MutableStat getCommandPoints();
   
   MutableStat getMarineEffectivnessMult();
   MutableStat getCrewXPGainMult();
   
   MutableStat getFleetSizeTravelPenaltyMult();
   
   //StatBonus getCombatDeploymentCost();
   
   StatBonus getMaxCapacitorsBonus();
   StatBonus getMaxVentsBonus();
   
   StatBonus getTravelSpeedBonus();
   
   MutableStat getFriendlyShipRepairChance();
   MutableStat getEnemyShipRepairChance();
   
   MutableStat getTravelRepairRateMult();
[close]
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The Soldier

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Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #127 on: September 22, 2012, 12:28:24 PM »

Hey, a hint as to what's coming!  There's a bunch of skills up on the changelog, mind if you organise them into the 4 aptitudes? :)
Anyways, will skills be moddable?  I've probably asked this already, but I've got a terrible case of brain-farts right about now. -_-
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Reshy

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Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #128 on: September 22, 2012, 02:01:10 PM »

I'm not against the change to aug-engines what I am against is that hull mods >need< to have a penalty assoicated to them.  I was mainly complaining about the first time penalties were introduced because it just seemed like a waste of time.  Adding a penalty to Advanced Optics and Augumented Engines just seemed like a case of "It's popular therefore it's overpowered".
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DelicateTask

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Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #129 on: September 22, 2012, 02:24:28 PM »

So much arguing going on around here. I can barely keep my head straight. But I just wanted to mention something that occurred to me while reading the above post.
I'm not against the change to aug-engines what I am against is that hull mods >need< to have a penalty assoicated to them.  I was mainly complaining about the first time penalties were introduced because it just seemed like a waste of time.  Adding a penalty to Advanced Optics and Augumented Engines just seemed like a case of "It's popular therefore it's overpowered".
I liked using advanced optics before, but I felt like the extra range for low OP was a bit cheap, and I put it on every ship that had a beam weapon. Now, I at least have to think about it first, and I like that too. I won't put it on a ship that uses lots of PD lasers because they need to turn fast to track missiles. I like having to choose carefully what I want my build to be, instead of always going with my favorite hull mods every time. However, I wouldn't mind it if some hull mods didn't have downsides because they're a bit weaker or only useful in certain situations.
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Reshy

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Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #130 on: September 22, 2012, 02:35:39 PM »

So much arguing going on around here. I can barely keep my head straight. But I just wanted to mention something that occurred to me while reading the above post.
I'm not against the change to aug-engines what I am against is that hull mods >need< to have a penalty assoicated to them.  I was mainly complaining about the first time penalties were introduced because it just seemed like a waste of time.  Adding a penalty to Advanced Optics and Augumented Engines just seemed like a case of "It's popular therefore it's overpowered".
I liked using advanced optics before, but I felt like the extra range for low OP was a bit cheap, and I put it on every ship that had a beam weapon. Now, I at least have to think about it first, and I like that too. I won't put it on a ship that uses lots of PD lasers because they need to turn fast to track missiles. I like having to choose carefully what I want my build to be, instead of always going with my favorite hull mods every time. However, I wouldn't mind it if some hull mods didn't have downsides because they're a bit weaker or only useful in certain situations.


All I saw it was as a way to increase the price by ten OP or suffer a penalty.  Adding in Turret Gyros counterats the penalty almost completely.
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Catra

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Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #131 on: September 22, 2012, 02:57:13 PM »

but there's really not that much to think about IRT optics and PD :

PD laser has a turn rate of 45 after optics
LRPD has a turn rate of 36
Burst PD has a turn rate of 60

for comparison:

the LMG/LDMG has a turn rate of 50
the flak cannon is 40 (and boy can that thing swivel)
the HMG is 40

just about every other gun barely breaks 20

the big number only looks crippling, but really isn't.
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Archduke Astro

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Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #132 on: September 22, 2012, 03:10:26 PM »

So much arguing going on around here. I can barely keep my head straight.

I happen to agree. Folks, dial-down the acrimony and [bill and ted] be excellent to each other [/bill and ted].

The above whirlwind re: 'hullmods with penalties' got way out of hand. I now regret voluntarily standing back from this thread for a bit in order to gauge the community's ability to regulate itself. If the patchnotes threads keep devolving like this, I am going to resort to sterner measures again to keep them on-track.
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The Soldier

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Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #133 on: September 22, 2012, 03:13:47 PM »

PD generally has to have a high turn rate, it's kinda obvious.

Anyways, will skills be moddable?
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silentstormpt

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Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #134 on: September 22, 2012, 07:53:55 PM »

As always great work, now here comes me being greedy, blame human nature!

Could you add Station (battles) in this patch or a small one after this one, with that and maybe mining would pretty much closed any work needed in system wise, opening the new work on the galaxy map (multiple solar systems).

Im actually pretty excited when the galaxy map comes out, just thinking about how long it would need to create every system in some mods ive had halted is making my spine chill. 300+ systems on Star Trek, 100+ random generated systems on the MOO mod, the Star Control mod with probably 200 or +  :o
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