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[shingekinolinus]

The Moscow's triple cannon should prove difficult to outrange.

with targeting unit + advanced optics, the incinerator beam outranges triple cannons by some 20 to 50m
I don't know if the lv.5 gunnery implants perk also increases the range

EDIT: OK I checked it again it really doesn't outrange the triple cannon at all, but the thing is I can target the frontal section of the Moscow without getting in range of its triple cannons.

I am an ISA player and I have a fleet consisting of 10 assault fighter wings, when deployed, they can launch a plethora of hundreds of unguided rockets and cripple or kill any RSF ship in seconds.

As you said, they do need better defence weapons.
In the older versions, I was able to put 6 to 10 double flaks and 6 chainblasters on the Moscow, making it absolutely invincible vs fighters and missiles.

[Pushover]

Must be the gunnery implants, since I can't manage to outrange the Moscow (with a Targeting Unit) with a Heavy Beamer and 0 skills.

My current Moscow that I'm flying has 5 Laser Beams and 2 Tri-Beams, as well as every small slot fitting a 42mm Flak. Combined with Powered Armor, Barracuda PRX Launchers, as well as 5 points in Combat, and 10 points in Technology, it can fight most ISA fleets solo.

When I was messing around with variants, when build a variant for the AI that fits within the 320 OP limit of a Moscow, it was hard to bring enough point defense and defense. I built for myself what I consider a fairly solid variant that uses only 2 42mm Flak for the front, 5 Laser Beams and 2 Tri-Beams, Powered Armor, Strela-6s, as well as 14mm Dual Machineguns. It's significantly more survivable than the existing Moscow variants. As for the Novagrad and below, short of gimping its normal fighting capabilities, I don't see a way to make them easily survivable without bringing in a lot of 42mm Flak.

[Silver Silence]

Hrm, well in the meantime, what do you guys think would be a reasonable level of ammo recharging for any missile launcher "launcher" or bigger (as it goes no-suffix, launcher, battery, system)? Half the ammo of the battery equivalent in the same time frame? So if a battery got 8 missiles every 20 seconds (the ones that reload 24 a minute), then perhaps 4 missiles every 20 seconds? Or 2 missiles, so that you don't get a whole volley's worth cos otherwise the launcher puts out as much as the battery.

[Pushover]

It varies by the launcher and role. For most rocket launchers, I'd assume that the entire system gets reloaded at once. For AFMs, the smaller ones probably also get reloaded at once. They carry enough for a single volley. The Unguided Rockets might be a bit different in that they reload half at once, since they have no designated 'volley' and more provide sustained damage.

For the larger AFMs (FRAG, possibly the Barracuda PRX) they could get reloaded a single fire cycle at a time (2 missiles for the Barracuda PRX, 1 for the FRAG missile) since you generally fire a single cycle at a group of fighters. Capacity is probably low for them.

For the general larger missiles (Hornet, Barracuda, Devilfish, Hunter, any others I'm missing), it probably depends on the role in that faction's navy. For the ISA, missiles are a major source of damage, I'd be fine with seeing lowish capacity, fast reloads. For the RSF (Hornet), I could see a high capacity, long reload, just like all the RSF ballistics. I'm not exactly clear on the UIN's position on missiles, but since they turn fights into slugfests due to the Fortress Shields and relatively ineffective weapons, I can see them reloading a few missiles at a time, low capacity, fast reloads.

For the smaller general missiles (Micro, Piranha, Eel, etc), I look at them more as support, when an enemy overloads you unload your missile racks. Therefore, they would reload their entire rack, since you unload the entire rack.

That leaves the Mosquito, which is the only Kinetic missile. It probably falls under the RSF plan of high capacity, long reload.

As for Torpedoes, I don't think I've ever used them over rockets. Larger torpedoes are just less useful than other larger systems, despite doing more damage. Torpedoes don't offer enough damage for me to give up the flexibility offered by other missile/rocket options.

In general, the ISA should probably have fast-ish reloads, since they rely on the missiles for damage. The UIN would probably also go with a fast reload, along with low capacity. The RSF would have high capacity, long reloads like their ballistic weapons. XLE only really have the Micro-missiles, otherwise they use rockets. So they reload their entire magazine at a moderate pace, I suppose.

[Silver Silence]

I was thinking of using the same values as the guns of each nation but those are not standardized which is probably why some guns seem to totally outperform others for sustained dps.
MID-POST EDIT: Actually, the reason they are not standardized is because the guns reload a certain amount of ammo every second but you don't actually get that ammo until you have a clip's worth. I was reading this all and going "holy crap, shouldn't these have like infinite ammo?"

Experimentally, I'll give each launcher double the reload speed of the battery version and half of the clip so that should make them load half the ammo in the same time frame (Half ammo at the same speed would mean they load as fast but with more regular intervals). I also tweaked the micro missile family to fully load their default ammo every 20 or 40 seconds depending on size. Rocket launchers reload all their default ammo half as fast as their larger counterpart. So they will get their ammo back.... eventually. For example, the kinetic rocket battery resupplies 20 rockets every 40 seconds. The launcher variant resupplies 40 rockets every 160 seconds. Almost 3 minutes of downtime.

EDIT: Tinkered weapon_data file if anyone would like to try it in their own time

[Gabriel_Braun]

Yeah, I'd like to see torpedos have some limited guidance like they did in the wing commander and starlancer/freelancer universes.  They ought to be better than rockets but at the moment they don't provide enough value for their OP cost IMHO

[Pushover]

I was thinking of using the same values as the guns of each nation but those are not standardized which is probably why some guns seem to totally outperform others for sustained dps.
MID-POST EDIT: Actually, the reason they are not standardized is because the guns reload a certain amount of ammo every second but you don't actually get that ammo until you have a clip's worth. I was reading this all and going "holy crap, shouldn't these have like infinite ammo?"

Experimentally, I'll give each launcher double the reload speed of the battery version and half of the clip so that should make them load half the ammo in the same time frame (Half ammo at the same speed would mean they load as fast but with more regular intervals). I also tweaked the micro missile family to fully load their default ammo every 20 or 40 seconds depending on size. Rocket launchers reload all their default ammo half as fast as their larger counterpart. So they will get their ammo back.... eventually. For example, the kinetic rocket battery resupplies 20 rockets every 40 seconds. The launcher variant resupplies 40 rockets every 160 seconds. Almost 3 minutes of downtime.

EDIT: Tinkered weapon_data file if anyone would like to try it in their own time

Some of the weapons probably should still not have reloads. I'm still against anything small having reloading missiles. Also, the larger missiles in medium slots should probably also not have reloads. I would not want the following to have reloads:
Micro-missile Launcher
Club Torpedo Launcher
Strela-6 AFM Launcher
Mosquito SRM Launcher
Hornet LRM Launcher
Hellfire Torpedo Launcher
Hellmaker Torpedo Launcher
Piranha SRM Launcher
Eel EMP SRM Launcher
Barracuda LRM and Barracuda PRX LRM Launchers
Devilfish Missile Launcher

All the larger missiles make sense to start as a medium slot that doesn't reload, and if you want reloads on those missiles, find a large slot. As for the smaller missiles, all the batteries are relatively expensive in terms of OP, but the regenerating missiles pay themselves off over time. A Strela-6 battery only has 800 damage in missiles, but reloads every 20 seconds. A pair of Barracuda LRMs is 2200 damage at much longer range and lower OP cost, but you only have the 2 missiles.

The Piranha and Eel batteries could probably be moved to a medium slot, and have their damage reduced. They seem more like support missiles than primary weapons, unlike the Barracuda and Devilfish missiles. Their lower damage per shot makes them worse at penetrating armor.

[Silver Silence]

I think the lighter missiles like the Strela having a reload are okay. Maybe not the heavy duty missiles from the ISA. I might rename them and strip the launcher suffix, take away the reload and give the large versions a launcher suffix instead.

All the larger missiles make sense to start as a medium slot that doesn't reload, and if you want reloads on those missiles, find a large slot. As for the smaller missiles, all the batteries are relatively expensive in terms of OP, but the regenerating missiles pay themselves off over time.

That's fine to me, as I said earlier, I don't like having a missile rack that's only good for the first ship you see,

[DatonKallandor]

The problem with making the only "big" (LRM and such) missiles that regenerate large mounts is that large missile mounts are really rare, and when there's a regen alternative you use that not the limited ammo one. It basically doesn't matter how powerful an LRM is - if it only has two or one shot in a battle but there's also something that's 80% or 90% weaker that regenerates, you go with the one that regenerates. In game where there is a way to absorb damage with a hitpoint pool that regenerates in combat (shields), weapons that only deal damage once or twice a battle will either suck or be wildly overpowered to compensate.

[Pushover]

As I pointed out earlier, a Strela-6 offers only 400 damage after emptying its entire rack. However, it reloads every 20 seconds. 2 of the 'big' missiles ends up at around 2000-3000 damage for similar OP numbers. Since it doesn't reload on the medium slot, there's still a fitting question of 'will I be in combat long enough for the reloading missiles to be worth more than the single missiles?' The Strela-6 also offers better AFM capabilities than many of the 'big' missiles (not the Barracuda PRX) since there are more missiles firing, and more projectiles for the fighters to dodge. That said, the 'big' missiles offer much better armor piercing capabilities. As I've said, I've gained a new appreciation for Tigersharks. 4 Tigersharks is enough to destroy a Novograd, even if it's just from a Connecticut. Fast large (and moderately high HP) missiles can get through point defense that smaller missiles would have severely weaker abilities against.

The thing about High Explosive missiles is that they should be used when you can land hits on the non-regenerating hitpoint pool of Hull and Armor. Ironclads also features a much faster-paced combat system than Vanilla. A single overload and you can often be destroyed or crippled, especially on ISA ships, which are probably colored white because they are made of paper. I suppose one weakness is that the AI is fairly bad about using missiles for this purpose, although I have noticed that they use the Janitor Missiles correctly, and when my shields get close to full, they launch a ton of them at me.


EDIT: When trying to make variants for the UIN, holy crap do the (majority of UIN) weapons suck, and holy crap does the AI not understand how to position a broadside ship.

[DatonKallandor]

EDIT: When trying to make variants for the UIN, holy crap do the (majority of UIN) weapons suck, and holy crap does the AI not understand how to position a broadside ship.

According to Alex that's because while there is an AI broadside behavior, there is no broadside back-off-and-vent AI, so anytime it recognizes a window to back off and vent it goes back to using the ship like a forward firepower ship.

[SafariJohn]

EDIT: When trying to make variants for the UIN, holy crap do the (majority of UIN) weapons suck, and holy crap does the AI not understand how to position a broadside ship.

According to Alex that's because while there is an AI broadside behavior, there is no broadside back-off-and-vent AI, so anytime it recognizes a window to back off and vent it goes back to using the ship like a forward firepower ship.

Same thing with the Pursuit AI.

[Pushover]

Don't know if anyone is interested, but I made some new variants for the ISA, RSF, and XLE. Avoided touching the UIN due to the problem where most of their weapons suck, and cost a lot of OP.

I made a 'modern' variant of most destroyers and larger ships. For the RSF, it means that the ship has Powered Armor, and generally effective point defense systems. I stole the 42mm Flak from the XLE for use by the RSF due to their lack of good point defense weapons, but they are cooperative with each other anyways, so it's not too hard to imagine that the RSF could pick up some Flak cannons from their XLE friends. If the RSF gets a good small point defense weapon, I'm all for putting those on instead. For the ISA, it means hardened shields (and the standard focus on heavy missiles). For the XLE, it means heavy Boltgun/cannon usage. Most of the variants I provided are hopefully more challenging than the basic ones.


On a side note, are Marauder ships supposed to have so few OP? A Mauler has 80 OP, but both variants mount 160 OP of weapons and such.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Black Crag]

Is there any way to get the mod? 

[Tommy]

Below the above post:

IroncladVariants.zip (27.62 KB - downloaded 4 times.)