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[Sloul]

Hello everybuddies  



My suggestions are campaign focused, also in an effort to make every kind of ship usefull in order to improve diversity
I understand this is only an alpha version, but as a tester, I have to give my feedback and so do I, I might be wrong and stuff.
Ill update the topic time to time with new suggestions coming up or whatsoever.



- Always select your troops:
For tiny to medium dogfights, there is no part where you can select ships to join battle and ships to stand by in reserve, I would like that to change because I got ships in my fleet that are not intended to fight (scouts, civilian cargos).
I have to order retreat to some of them at the beginning of the fight which lower my command points and also prevents me to use those ships later during the fight (ex: interceptions).



- Regarding fleet points:
I think fleet points are not balanced as they are now.
Fighters costs being 10 fleet points, -awesome medusa-destroyers being 11 fleet points etc. There are many evidences.
I trully think the costs should work that way:
- Fighters & Bombers : 1-5 fleet points
- Frigates: 5-10
- Destroyers: 10-15
- Cruisers: 15-20
-Capitals: 20-25
If im asked to do so, I agree to point out in a more elaborated way the balance problems that come with fleet points (in a form of a video probably, but its goin to take some times so only Alex can ask me to do that).



Speed for transporters:
Their only mean of defense is speed, currently the only-one answering that statement is the Hound-Class frigate. The problem that comes with other transporters is that they will lower the speed of your fleet because they usually are the slowest ships.
My vision of a good RTS or space RTS is that it should always makes players having a variety of units, and that's the game mechanics that must define that, not the player to hide behind some RP.
Transporters in your fleet should be: miam, not: ew.
To get even more of that the cargo space of war ships could be diminish, so that transporters would be vital, at the price of precious fleet points.



Demo-class and mines:
Would be cool during deployment to order some demo-class ships to set mines on the map.
You know those maps with 4 points, 2 left-side, 2 right-side, would be funy to mine-up the path in between, or to mine-up one points that are not defended.
Damage would be equal to torpedoes (4000~).
Problem is, could it work with the AI?

I also thought of some kind of dust that increase the speed at which flux generate for every ship staying or passing through the area effect (500-800).
What about some ''canon-dust'' for long range support ships, they would fire some obus that would release such ''dust''.
Anyway the base idea is some kinf of area debuff.



Pull/pulse ship system: ''tractor-beam''?
A ship system that would pull or pulse targeted ships (900-1200).
Could be usefull to take down fleeing ships or save friend ship.

[PCCL]

Hello everybuddies  



My suggestions are campaign focused, also in an effort to make every kind of ship usefull in order to improve diversity
I understand this is only an alpha version, but as a tester, I have to give my feedback and so do I, I might be wrong and stuff.
Ill update the topic time to time with new suggestions coming up or whatsoever.



- Always select your troops:
For tiny to medium dogfights, there is no part where you can select ships to join battle and ships to stand by in reserve, I would like that to change because I got ships in my fleet that are not intended to fight (scouts, civilian cargos).
I have to order retreat to some of them at the beginning of the fight which lower my command points and also prevents me to use those ships later during the fight (ex: interceptions).

don't agree with this... the idea behind small fights is making use of everyone, even the lowly tanker

if anything I'd suggest moving them closer or making a certain amount time pass before allowing retreat to make sure freighters stay in the fight

- Regarding fleet points:
I think fleet points are not balanced as they are now.
Fighters costs being 10 fleet points, -awesome medusa-destroyers being 11 fleet points etc. There are many evidences.
I trully think the costs should work that way:
- Fighters & Bombers : 1-5 fleet points
- Frigates: 5-10
- Destroyers: 10-15
- Cruisers: 15-20
-Capitals: 20-25
If im asked to do so, I agree to point out in a more elaborated way the balance problems that come with fleet points (in a form of a video probably, but its goin to take some times so only Alex can ask me to do that).

nah... there are really powerful frigates (like the hyperion) and really weak capital ships (like the atlas) and everything in between. It's probably best to just balance them on a ship by ship basis. That said, the warthog (the fighter that costs 10 points) is a bit too expensive IMO, but the other fighters (usually 5-7 in cost) are just fine

Speed for transporters:
Their only mean of defense is speed, currently the only-one answering that statement is the Hound-Class frigate. The problem that comes with other transporters is that they will lower the speed of your fleet because they usually are the slowest ships.
My vision of a good RTS or space RTS is that it should always makes players having a variety of units, and that's the game mechanics that must define that, not the player to hide behind some RP.
Transporters in your fleet should be: miam, not: ew.
To get even more of that the cargo space of war ships could be diminish, so that transporters would be vital, at the price of precious fleet points.

by transporters you mean freighters?

If so, no. Their only means of defence isn't speed, it's the rest of your fleet. If a freighter gets caught out in a medium-large fight alone, it's usually royally screwed and that's supposed to happen. Their value lies in hauling supplies around and trading, which will be more fleshed out as development goes on.

think of them as the king in chess, it's probably one of the least powerful piece, but it has its values in that it keeps you in the game.

I usually keep a freighter or 2 in my fleet for loot storing, an actually useful role far from hiding behind RP

but I suppose a bit less cargo space for war ships might be a good idea... Or maybe make them carry their own ammo and missiles? something like that I guess

Demo-class and mines:
Would be cool during deployment to order some demo-class ships to set mines on the map.
You know those maps with 4 points, 2 left-side, 2 right-side, would be funy to mine-up the path in between, or to mine-up one points that are not defended.
Damage would be equal to torpedoes (4000~).
Problem is, could it work with the AI?

not a fan of mines... AI problem mainly as you said... if alex can work it out then sure some more defensive measures are nice

I also thought of some kind of dust that increase the speed at which flux generate for every ship staying or passing through the area effect (500-800).
What about some ''canon-dust'' for long range support ships, they would fire some obus that would release such ''dust''.
Anyway the base idea is some kinf of area debuff.

don't like aoe... might screw with fighter balance, also I just don't like them in general

Pull/pulse ship system: ''tractor-beam''?
A ship system that would pull or pulse targeted ships (900-1200).
Could be usefull to take down fleeing ships or save friend ship.

again no... would be hell for AI to learn...

also fighter balance, frigates etc.etc (that way battleships would absolutely own frigates with one of those

EDIT: just re-read the post... god i sound negative... sorry if it sounds mean, I guess I just don't agree with those points

[armoredcookie]

I like the current small fighting system, where every ship is spawned in immediately. Never really found it a problem for running out of command points for retreating and other things of the likes. If the problem is mainly regarding command points, then I think it's an alteration of the command point system rather than battle mechanics that should be done.

The fleet point thing is to linear for Starfarer's line of ships. As gunny said, there are incredibly powerful ships that have the firepower and combat capability of ships far above their class and the opposite is true as well. Most fighters are relatively cheap anyways, like 3-7 ish FP. Fighters are also designed not to have too much up front firepower, but with carrier assistance, they can continuously bring butthurt to the opposing side.

Ehhh... Combat speed of freighters and the likes isn't supposed to be that great. They aren't really supposed to be in the midst of combat. Most freighters are fairly armored or have a good fighter screen (with their flight decks) and can fend for themselves in groups or with the assistance of another ship. Although I do have to say the travel speed is unbearingly slow at times. I would assume they're designed to fly in a straight line to places, not really requiring combat maneuvering, so shouldn't they have a fast travel speed?

Mines might be fun for the player to fool around with, but when the AI starts to use them? And your fighters and frigates start dying for no apparent reason? I'm pretty sure mines are able to be made in mods as well, based off of the proximity charge. But for now the AI doesn't understand the concept and will use them like bombs.

Might be an interesting mechanic in regards to dust, but it seems like it would be too much of a stat buff. Like a portable Nav Buoy per say. If it was a bit more unique or special then it might be pretty cool to see in game.

In regards to the tractor beam, I just don't like the idea of a player (or AI) being able to forcibly control where the ships on the map are. You won't really be able to do anything about it nor the AI will be able to do anything, and that's not really fun anymore.

[Chancellor Meatsteak]

- Always select your troops:
For tiny to medium dogfights, there is no part where you can select ships to join battle and ships to stand by in reserve, I would like that to change because I got ships in my fleet that are not intended to fight (scouts, civilian cargos).
I have to order retreat to some of them at the beginning of the fight which lower my command points and also prevents me to use those ships later during the fight (ex: interceptions).

I believe Alex has said that is intended as it allows you to see ships that you wouldn't see in battle otherwise and have to make good use of all the ships that you have. I'm not entirely sure if I support that reasoning or not though. I don't use freighters much so I can't  really say.

- Regarding fleet points:
I think fleet points are not balanced as they are now.
Fighters costs being 10 fleet points, -awesome medusa-destroyers being 11 fleet points etc. There are many evidences.
I trully think the costs should work that way:
- Fighters & Bombers : 1-5 fleet points
- Frigates: 5-10
- Destroyers: 10-15
- Cruisers: 15-20
-Capitals: 20-25
If im asked to do so, I agree to point out in a more elaborated way the balance problems that come with fleet points (in a form of a video probably, but its goin to take some times so only Alex can ask me to do that).

While I agree there is several discrepancies in power/fleet point ratio I feel as if they are mostly about right. Fighter/Frigate/Destroyer/Cruiser/Capital Ship designations are more about size and OP than battlefield usefulness, hence the Hyperion costing 15 FP and the Venture costing 12 FP. As well most fighters are definitely worth more than 1-5 FP; if you total up the weapons an entire wing uses it provides a level of firepower equivalent to a frigate, with a similar comparison for hull and armor; while they usually lack shields they make up for it by being able to repair at a carrier; and since most are so fast they are extremely adept at capturing points.

Speed for transporters:
Their only mean of defense is speed, currently the only-one answering that statement is the Hound-Class frigate. The problem that comes with other transporters is that they will lower the speed of your fleet because they usually are the slowest ships.
My vision of a good RTS or space RTS is that it should always makes players having a variety of units, and that's the game mechanics that must define that, not the player to hide behind some RP.
Transporters in your fleet should be: miam, not: ew.
To get even more of that the cargo space of war ships could be diminish, so that transporters would be vital, at the price of precious fleet points.

Cargo and fuel capacity stats are likely to get an overhaul when the economy gets implemented in the following updates. Right now there is no trading or mining, you only need cargo space for loot, so the ability to carry massive amounts of cargo isn't useful yet. I suspect the idea is that warships will carry only enough cargo to supply themselves and you need the vulnerable freighters if you want to carry enough goods to make a decent profit from trade. Given that, freighters being slow isn't a big deal; if you can expect to make a lot of money from a trade run you probably will not want to chase down small fleets anyway, and being easier to catch by bigger fleets is something you will have to take into account. Also, as gunny freak stated, keeping freighters alive is more about a solid escort than having them try to run off on their own.

Fortunately, the next update is going to deal with the campaign, and a rudimentary form of economy being implemented would be a reasonable assumption. Freighters will be much more useful then.

Also, what does "miam" mean?

[Sloul]

@gunnyfreak you do not sound mean, and yes by transporters I meant freighters  
@armoredcookie by speed for freighters I meant travel speed indeed, but I guess the two kind of speed are linked to each other.
@Meatsteak ''miam'' as for ''miam miam'' it express appetite, in Star Wars 6, the ewoks are saying it before goin to eat ''miam miam''.

About the first suggestion, which is: being able to choose which ship stay behind in little battles; I think it's to the player to decide wether he wants one ship to get in or not, thing is if he decides to let a ship behind, at everytime he can call him in during the battle.
When you attack another fleet and you got freighters, you do not need your freighters to be part of the attack.
But, if you change your mind, then, you can always summon them in the fight.
Maybe as players we should not be able to make that call if under attack.


Fleet points: you guyz just pointed out the two most not balanced ships that come to my mind.
The Hyperion 15 fleet points, not to mention the price.
The fighters 10 fleet points, not to mention the price.
Well, the price is not that big deel I think they are highly advanced in technology so its fine.
But the problem is what about the Medusa-class Destroyer? Medusa is just 2 or 3 times better than Hyperion and it cost less fleet points and cash (11 fp and 18k credits), here is the big deal.
When it comes to speed, ok the Hyperion is faster than Medusa but not that much.


AOE DEBUFF: in fact I think it will give some advantage to fighters because they can easily avoid those areas, in my mind those debuff areas would be letal to the biggest/slowest ships.

[BillyRueben]

About the first suggestion, which is: being able to choose which ship stay behind in little battles; I think it's to the player to decide wether he wants one ship to get in or not, thing is if he decides to let a ship behind, at everytime he can call him in during the battle.
When you attack another fleet and you got freighters, you do not need your freighters to be part of the attack.
But, if you change your mind, then, you can always summon them in the fight.
Maybe as players we should not be able to make that call if under attack.

Why would you ever want to call in your freighters to ANY fight? The Mule is the only freighter I would even consider purposely bringing in to a fight. If anything, I think there should be some new gameplay mechanic to keep the civilian ships in the fight a little longer in the "small" engagements.

But the problem is what about the Medusa-class Destroyer? Medusa is just 2 or 3 times better than Hyperion and it cost less fleet points and cash (11 fp and 18k credits), here is the big deal.

Wrong. The Hyperion is one of the strongest ships in the game.

EDIT: Oh good, a brand new thread that proves my point: http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=4155.0

[Sloul]

Why would you ever want to call in your freighters to ANY fight? The Mule is the only freighter I would even consider purposely bringing in to a fight. If anything, I think there should be some new gameplay mechanic to keep the civilian ships in the fight a little longer in the "small" engagements.

With all due respect Sir, its not for you to decide.
I do use my freighters in fight sometimes (trying to chase down fleeing ships, capture points etc.).


As for the Hyperion being one of the strongest ships in the game, I dont doubt it, I just doubt it can beat a Medusa. Which is less costly in both fleet points and credits.

[Temjin]

Why would you ever want to call in your freighters to ANY fight? The Mule is the only freighter I would even consider purposely bringing in to a fight. If anything, I think there should be some new gameplay mechanic to keep the civilian ships in the fight a little longer in the "small" engagements.

With all due respect Sir, its not for you to decide.
I do use my freighters in fight sometimes (trying to chase down fleeing ships, capture points etc.).


As for the Hyperion being one of the strongest ships in the game, I dont doubt it, I just doubt it can beat a Medusa. Which is less costly in both fleet points and credits.

Easily. Faster and can teleport around the Medusa's shields.

[BillyRueben]

Why would you ever want to call in your freighters to ANY fight? The Mule is the only freighter I would even consider purposely bringing in to a fight. If anything, I think there should be some new gameplay mechanic to keep the civilian ships in the fight a little longer in the "small" engagements.

With all due respect Sir, its not for you to decide.
I do use my freighters in fight sometimes (trying to chase down fleeing ships, capture points etc.).

Freighters are too slow to chase down fleeing ships (even if they weren't, they don't have the firepower to do anything anyway) and they don't respond to point capture orders. These aren't opinions, they are facts.

[Chancellor Meatsteak]

As for the Hyperion being one of the strongest ships in the game, I dont doubt it, I just doubt it can beat a Medusa. Which is less costly in both fleet points and credits.

It definitely can, especially in the player's hands, though it depends a bit on the loadout. The Medusa is strong enough that the Hyperion can't win in a straight up firefight, and sufficiently nimble to be able to react quickly to teleportation. It isn't nimble enough to be able to react to the first shot after teleporting though, so the Hyperion can use high-damage weapons like anti-matter blasters to make sure that first shot counts. With Pulse Lasers or lower damage-per-shot weapons you can eventually grind down a Medusa if you are careful not to take any armor/hull damage yourself, but it's going to take a while.

Hyperion versus Medusa is a bit of a special case, however. Lighter ships usually aren't strong enough to win a straight up firefight, and heavier ships usually aren't nimble enough to react quickly. The Hyperion is much better than the Medusa for running down fleeing ships, and it also can solo an Onslaught, something the Medusa isn't capable of. I'd say the Hyperion is definitely worth it's FP.

That said, the Medusa is a very powerful destroyer. Generally, wherever the difference between the power of two ships is greater than what FP costs would suggest the weaker ship is usually faster and thus better able to capture points and pick its fights. The Medusa however is both arguably the most powerful and unarguably the most maneuverable destroyer, so a small FP increase possibly wouldn't be unwarranted.

[Sloul]

Easily. Faster and can teleport around the Medusa's shields.

Medusa got 3 charge teleport. The tactic you're mentioning is what im using with them.

Freighters are too slow to chase down fleeing ships (even if they weren't, they don't have the firepower to do anything anyway) and they don't respond to point capture orders. These aren't opinions, they are facts.

To capture points with freighter you use ''rally civilian ships''.
My freighters speed in combat is 207.
They are facts.

@Chancellor Meatsteak thanks you to add some sense to that discussion.
Well about the Medusa not able to take down an Onslaught, I really wonder. I've taken down many capital ships with those lil medusa thanks to their teleportation. Its pretty easy to stay behind the engines of big capital ships as they usually got front shield.

[Chancellor Meatsteak]

Okay saying the Medusa is incapable was a poor choice of words on my part. It certainly is, technically anything is if given enough time and skill, but it has a much harder time then the Hyperion because it only has a Phase Skimmer and not a Phase Teleporter. Just a quick question, are you half or full flagship damage right now? If you left it on half damage it might be influencing your results compared to the rest of us. You can check in the options menu, in case you don't know.

EDIT: Now that I've messed around with it in the simulator it doesn't have as hard a time as I thought it would, though still not as good as the Hyperion in that regard.

As for freighters, I'm assuming you are using Drams that have augmented engines and using the no-flux engine boost? The only other freighters that can get that fast is a burn-driving Tarsus (which goes slightly faster than 207 when it does) or a Hound (which is well armed enough to not count as a civilian ship). It is not an ideal usage; a Talon wing for example is faster, costs less FP, and is more survivable if given carrier support; but it does raise the interesting point of how capable freighters should be if you are forced to use them. Clearly, this will differ on a ship to ship basis, and what ships you choose will come down to playstyle. You for example seem to want to be able to get the most out of your fleet if you need to; so most likely you will choose Mules, Hounds, or Tarsus(es? Tarsii?) as they are better able to fend for themselves or make quick dashes for undefended control points. Meanwhile a player more confident in their escorting ability who does not want to risk sending their freighters out undefended will not mind using Buffalo, Phaetons, or Atlases.

Right now, the idea seems to be that freighters are generally to be escorted rather than to run off on their own. Given that, it makes more sense from a design perspective for them to favor durability over firepower or speed. Freighters should be sufficiently durable so that you can rush to their aid if they come under attack, though not so durable that they can't be reasonably destroyed if left alone. They shouldn't be so fast that they can't be intercepted, nor have enough firepower that they can take down attackers without help. The current implementation of freighters seem to adhere to that fairly well, with those that don't being specifically designed exceptions.

[Temjin]

Try the Wolf Pack mission. Tarsus freighters are much harder to stop now with Burn Drive.

[Sloul]

@Meatsteak
Skimmer is very good though, its behavior in combat is very good (the way your ship position itself when you use it) and you got 3 charges meaning: you can instantly get behind shield of a designed ship, fire, and then tp again to evade other ships attack.

As freighters I'm using Hound-class frigate.

[Chancellor Meatsteak]

It is indeed a very good system, just not at the level of the Phase Teleporter, which is powerful enough to justify the Hyperion's higher FP cost.

Regarding Hounds, they are one of the "specifically designed exceptions" I mentioned, being more of a warship that happens to be able haul cargo as opposed to a dedicated freighter. It's not a great combatant, but it is still strong enough to be excluded from being a civilian ship.