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Author Topic: Ideas Regarding Invisibility  (Read 4861 times)

Mr Magpie

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Ideas Regarding Invisibility
« on: August 22, 2012, 03:31:14 PM »

I'm just here to argue the effectiveness of Phase ship as strike craft and some cool ideas to solve ineffectiveness that I've experienced.

Note: I haven't actually had a lot of experience with Phase ship so I could just be rubbish at flying then, making this post a load of nonsense.   

I'll start my argument with the name of the new mission to show off the  phase ships, Ambush. The word ambush puts me in mind of a big cat concealed behind a bush or in long grass almost invisible to its prey ready to strike when the time is right with a fatal blow. However the Doom-class isn't concealed, its about as discreet Onslaught coming at you. Even before your phased out the secret is out and your quickly engulfed in a hale of gun fire and missiles. Now I know Alex didn't like the idea of complete invisibility (though I didn't get his side of the argument), so I'm not saying that phase ships should be completely invisible, only mostly.

Here's an idea, Phase ships would be invisible for most of the time, but from time to time the ship would flicker in to existence giving you an idea of where its at and where its going so you know what ships its aiming for and what precautions to make. But the Phase ship still has that initial surprise to strike which is untimely what Phase ships are for.

An alternative, and maybe better, idea would be, in the same way energy weapons do more damage when at high flux, the Phase coils become more efficient at high flux making you ship more or less, invisible. The longer you stay phased out, the more invisible you become but, therefore, less flux for you to work with when you phase out, its the consequence for being invisible. Consequences, I heard you quite liked those Alex.

So its just another idea of hundreds that have already been thrown at this project but I'll see what you guys think of it.                 
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GUNINANRUNIN

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Re: Ideas Regarding Invisibility
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2012, 04:26:00 PM »

 This topic has been brought up numerous times in multiple threads.
Quote
I haven't actually had a lot of experience with a Phase ship.
You really should play with them more. They're a lot of fun to use once you figure them out. If you need some help with Phase ship strategy just pick through the forums for a bit.
Quote
….the Doom-class isn't concealed, its about as discreet as an Onslaught coming at you.
As far as I know, Alex never promised anyone that phasing would do anything in the way of hiding you.
I do recall that he rolled it around a bit and decided it wouldn't work. My point being, why complain about the phase ship's lack of concealment when it was never intended to?
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In short, if you throw a stone out of the rear window of your spaceship you will go faster.

Gothars

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Re: Ideas Regarding Invisibility
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2012, 01:25:37 AM »

As far as I know, Alex never promised anyone that phasing would do anything in the way of hiding you.
I do recall that he rolled it around a bit and decided it wouldn't work. My point being, why complain about the phase ship's lack of concealment when it was never intended to?

Sure, invisibility was the original plan, just read the blog post.


While i get the gameplay problems with it, I would still love to see it coming in another form. Maybe some phase ships could have a ship system of "Deep Phasing", were they detach their phase coils from normal space. That would make them invisible and permeable but they would also loose engines and maneuverability. So you would have to accelerate towards the enemy, deep phase and then just sliiide...and hope the enemy doesn't change course.
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Uomoz

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Re: Ideas Regarding Invisibility
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2012, 01:50:00 AM »

As far as I know, Alex never promised anyone that phasing would do anything in the way of hiding you.
I do recall that he rolled it around a bit and decided it wouldn't work. My point being, why complain about the phase ship's lack of concealment when it was never intended to?

Sure, invisibility was the original plan, just read the blog post.


While i get the gameplay problems with it, I would still love to see it coming in another form. Maybe some phase ships could have a ship system of "Deep Phasing", were they detach their phase coils from normal space. That would make them invisible and permeable but they would also loose engines and maneuverability. So you would have to accelerate towards the enemy, deep phase and then just sliiide...and hope the enemy doesn't change course.

The Deep phase looks cool!
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Apophis

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Re: Ideas Regarding Invisibility
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2012, 01:58:10 AM »

Here's an idea, Phase ships would be invisible for most of the time, but from time to time the ship would flicker in to existence giving you an idea of where its at and where its going so you know what ships its aiming for and what precautions to make. But the Phase ship still has that initial surprise to strike which is untimely what Phase ships are for.
An alternative, and maybe better, idea would be, in the same way energy weapons do more damage when at high flux, the Phase coils become more efficient at high flux making you ship more or less, invisible. The longer you stay phased out, the more invisible you become but, therefore, less flux for you to work with when you phase out, its the consequence for being invisible. Consequences, I heard you quite liked those Alex.               
Maybe some phase ships could have a ship system of "Deep Phasing", were they detach their phase coils from normal space. That would make them invisible and permeable but they would also loose engines and maneuverability. So you would have to accelerate towards the enemy, deep phase and then just sliiide...and hope the enemy doesn't change course.

3 good ideas.
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Sunfire

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Re: Ideas Regarding Invisibility
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2012, 05:25:15 AM »

Phase tech at this point is old news, and everyone has sensors to detect phase
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Gothars

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Re: Ideas Regarding Invisibility
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2012, 06:04:36 AM »

Phase tech at this point is old news, and everyone has sensors to detect phase

Quote from: Alex's blog post "The Evolution of Phase Cloaking" 
So, conceptually, let’s say the ship is still in an alternate dimension, but it’s got energy anchors in this one, so it can be detected – call them “phase coils” to build on the art, and we’ve got something that looks like this:

So what happens when you detach those energy anchors? You can't detect the ship, it becomes invisible. But obviously there must be a reason why they exist, and that could be maneuverability. You cut even argue that a deep phased ship should have no working sensors.

If this ability is still too scary there could also be kind of a "phase bang" in equivalent to a supersonic bang, so everyone would be warned of a deep phasing ship.

Since there would always be a short normal phase stage before/after deep phasing there should be no problem with overlapping ships.
The problem is, obviously, to teach the AI how to slide. Even if Alex likes this idea he's busy now with the more important campaign work.  But maybe, someday...?
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GUNINANRUNIN

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Re: Ideas Regarding Invisibility
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2012, 06:07:52 AM »

Quote
While i get the gameplay problems with it, I would still love to see it coming in another form. Maybe some phase ships could have a ship system of "Deep Phasing", were they detach their phase coils from normal space. That would make them invisible and permeable but they would also loose engines and maneuverability. So you would have to accelerate towards the enemy, deep phase and then just sliiide...and hope the enemy doesn't change course.
That sounds like a fantastic idea to me. Would it be an alternative to phasing, a system for phase ships, a mod perhaps?
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Gothars

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Re: Ideas Regarding Invisibility
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2012, 08:04:01 AM »

Yeah, the more I think about the better I like it. The whole phasing concept is originally the equivalent of WWII submarines. So current phasing is like periscope-deepness, where the submarine has good orientation but is detectable. Deep phasing could be analog to  deep submerging, where the ship is not detectable but lacks orientation/ maneuverability.

Because I like it so much I would really love for Alex to read this; could you please make a short note if you do?  Doesn't even have to be a reply, just so I know it did not just slip by you. Otherwise I will repost this later.
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Faiter119

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Re: Ideas Regarding Invisibility
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2012, 08:22:13 AM »

Yeah, the more I think about the better I like it. The whole phasing concept is originally the equivalent of WWII submarines. So current phasing is like periscope-deepness, where the submarine has good orientation but is detectable. Deep phasing could be analog to  deep submerging, where the ship is not detectable but lacks orientation/ maneuverability.

Because I like it so much I would really love for Alex to read this; could you please make a short note if you do?  Doesn't even have to be a reply, just so I know it did not just slip by you. Otherwise I will repost this later.

Im pretty sure that there is illegal, also having invisible ships would totally screw with the AI. Also other things Alex has explained several times, im pretty sure he is annoyed with this now.
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Gothars

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Re: Ideas Regarding Invisibility
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2012, 08:35:20 AM »

Im pretty sure that there is illegal, also having invisible ships would totally screw with the AI. Also other things Alex has explained several times, im pretty sure he is annoyed with this now.


Why, Illegal? Well, that makes me a criminal then, you better watch out!

As far as I know nothing similar was proposed before, so you can't tell if Alex is annoyed by it or not. Feel free to point me to contrary evidence.
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Thaago

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Re: Ideas Regarding Invisibility
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2012, 08:40:08 AM »

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Gothars

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Re: Ideas Regarding Invisibility
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2012, 08:46:49 AM »

There is a blog post about this: http://fractalsoftworks.com/2012/07/09/the-evolution-of-phase-cloaking/

Which I repeatedly referenced. Ok, maybe this thread is a bit too long, I was at no point talking about the OPs suggestion but about my own, third post from the top. I will probably just open a new suggestion thread later.
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Alex

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Re: Ideas Regarding Invisibility
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2012, 08:55:34 AM »

I'm not annoyed by suggestions, regardless of whether they fit in with where I'd like the game to go or not - especially if they're well thought out.

I am mildly annoyed by public attempts to get my attention. If you need to do it, send me a PM. If you don't think it merits a PM, it probably doesn't merit huge bolded text. After all, I wouldn't see if it I didn't look at the thread in the first place, so it's kind of pointless.

As it happens, I had read this thread before (I try to read as much as I can, which ends up being most of what's posted on the suggestions forum). So, even if I don't respond to something, chances are pretty good I've seen it.


@Magpie: I must point out that the word "ambush" in the "Ambush" mission refers to the phase ships being ambushed by a superior patrol, not the other way around :)


As for the deep phasing idea: actually considered this very idea - fixed velocity while phased, all that. Sounded good at first, but ultimately seems like it'd be very awkward, especially for the AI. And it still brings up all the "how does the AI deal with it when the enemy does it" problems, which I think would be best avoided. The reasoning in that blog post still applies.

Did *not* consider having both deep and "shallow" phasing, btw - but that's even more troublesome, requiring additional controls to manage.


Lorewise, the phase coils are needed to anchor the ship in normal space. If the anchor were to fail, the ship would be permanently lost in p-space (cue ominous music).
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Gothars

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Re: Ideas Regarding Invisibility
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2012, 09:14:08 AM »

Alright, good to know. I assumed PMs would be even more of an annoyance since they are harder to ignore.

Pity that deep phasing's not an option. If I may ask, do you consider phasing as a finalized feature?




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