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Author Topic: Mjolnir Cannon: Anyone Use It?  (Read 28862 times)

armoredcookie

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Re: Mjolnir Cannon: Anyone Use It?
« Reply #75 on: August 21, 2012, 12:28:19 PM »

Lemme just post the lore here for convenience's sake:

A medium range cannon that delivers superior damage over time and also has a significant EMP payload.

A very advanced design, the Mjolnir is technically a magneto-gravitic shell projector, not a standard cannon. The micro capacitors within each shell are able to deliver enough energy to create a localized singularity with a Schwarzschild radius of 1.8 millimeters. The built-in gravitic lens devastates all nearby matter and creates the electromagnetic pulse (EMP) effect, disabling the target's weapons and systems.

He is proposing a change. As in not the same.

I guess we can alter the lore a bit. But it does shoot solid slugs.
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Hopelessnoob

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Re: Mjolnir Cannon: Anyone Use It?
« Reply #76 on: August 21, 2012, 12:29:02 PM »

Played with this weapon for a bit because of this thread and it just lacks the wonderful stuff that makes ballistics good. The fact that it does 100% to everything is its biggest weakness. I'd much rather have 2 different guns, one Kinetic and one explosive. the gun doesn't have any real advantages over other weapons that i've seen. Its a fine gun but there's much better ones for less OP and cost.
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Reshy

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Re: Mjolnir Cannon: Anyone Use It?
« Reply #77 on: August 21, 2012, 12:30:43 PM »

How about instead of full penetration, partial penetration.  Instead the 'Initial' impact makes the shot act like it just hit maximum range and starts to fade.  But the bullet doesn't disappear until this occurs.  So while each tick does damage it's not likely to go through both sides or do full damage per tick.
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FlashFrozen

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Re: Mjolnir Cannon: Anyone Use It?
« Reply #78 on: August 21, 2012, 12:31:28 PM »

I lurves lore! Just saying, to get a blackhole the size of 1.8 millmeters, it'll have to have atleast 1/5th the Earth's mass 3:

Edit: I like partial penetration more than full penetration, full pens tend to lag, and how about this, maximum partial pen damag,e and then the shell disappears, but the moment the shell contacts the hull, a minimum damage is applied.

I'll just Elaborate on Reshy's Example:
Shell does max 700 damage

Shell enters hull

250 damage instantly

+ 150 tick of damage ( or half it to 75 and make it require longer contact)
+ 150
+ 150
Max damage reached
Shell disappears,

Maybe if shields are still up, only Reduced tick damage is applied.

+75
+75
+75

For a max of only 225

On smaller ships they'll recieve less damage ( which to me seems strange since blackhole but anyway)
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 12:38:57 PM by FlashFrozen »
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Catra

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Re: Mjolnir Cannon: Anyone Use It?
« Reply #79 on: August 21, 2012, 12:39:53 PM »

How about instead of full penetration, partial penetration.  Instead the 'Initial' impact makes the shot act like it just hit maximum range and starts to fade.  But the bullet doesn't disappear until this occurs.  So while each tick does damage it's not likely to go through both sides or do full damage per tick.

or no penetration since the bullet detonates ( implodes? i suppose ) and creates a matter destroying singularity at the impact point. <.<
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Faiter119

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Re: Mjolnir Cannon: Anyone Use It?
« Reply #80 on: August 21, 2012, 12:42:48 PM »

What if the black hole stays for a while at the point of impact and DOT anything that runs over it? Would force ships to redirect themself.
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FlashFrozen

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Re: Mjolnir Cannon: Anyone Use It?
« Reply #81 on: August 21, 2012, 12:46:40 PM »

That would need a lore article on shields which would prob make alex spew out some fluff :P

But as is shields are king, they blockz evarything.
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hydremajor

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Re: Mjolnir Cannon: Anyone Use It?
« Reply #82 on: August 21, 2012, 12:59:30 PM »

How about just giving it higher muzzle speed ?

Something like lets say twice or 1.5X the speed of a normal bullet
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heskey30

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Re: Mjolnir Cannon: Anyone Use It?
« Reply #83 on: August 21, 2012, 01:00:14 PM »

A schwarzchild radius is not how big it is, but how far from it's center light has to be to be able to escape it's gravity field. Black holes are all infinitely small according to theory.

But arcibalde was right - with a schwarzchild radius of 1.8 millimeters a black hole would be very heavy. Not twice the mass of mars, more like twice the mass of the moon.

Or maybe it is not inaccuracy. We don't know how big these ships are, do we?  :o

On the penetration idea, it does make sense, but I think it would make the game less fun. Either you can stomp all big ships easily, or it is still under-powered because it can't kill small ships yet is not great against big ships either.

And no, I do not use this weapon.
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Aleskander

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Re: Mjolnir Cannon: Anyone Use It?
« Reply #84 on: August 21, 2012, 02:02:32 PM »

- Significantly reduce the damage
- keep flux cost as-is.
- Make the projectile not die upon impact.

So it'll travel through shields and hull doing damage each tick.
The projectile only dies when it reaches its maximum range.

This would make the weapon totally unique, both in game mechanics and in strategic use.
Such a weapon would be less effective against small targets but deadly against voluminous ones.

that doesn't make any sense since it shoots solid slugs and detonates on impact.

As of now it does, but if alex changes the system it might not
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Voyager I

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Re: Mjolnir Cannon: Anyone Use It?
« Reply #85 on: August 21, 2012, 02:38:16 PM »

i don't see why cost should be a consideration factor when it can be made moot.

That's why you can't grasp why Mjolnirs are bad. In vanilla Starfarer, there's almost much no such thing as making flux costs moot. Flux efficiency is one of the most important stats for a capital ship. It gives you more flux to fire your guns and keep your shields up for longer. Having efficient weapons is both an offensive and defensive choice.

The only way for flux cost to be moot is if your dissipation is greater that your upkeep. 2 Mjolnirs on their own use up almost all of a Conquest's theoretical max dissipation, and uses that flux less efficiently than any other large ballistic weapon. (And so you know, every point of flux dissipation is more valuable than the last, since it dissipates a greater percentage of the remaining flux buildup than the last)

Even if you go for some combination other than Storm Needler and Hephaestus, it would give you more OP to spend on hull mods or additional capacitors. No matter how you look at it, Mjolnirs are bad.

i'd like to think i can't grasp why they are bad because i don't quite believe in this nonsense that you just presented to me.

If you really, honestly care why some people here think you're a troll, this little exchange shows off most of the problem.  I'm not going to sugar coat this at all, but please understand that my intent here is not to aggravate you.

The starting point is that you don't understand game mechanics.  While not getting the nuts-and-bolts of a video game certainly doesn't make you a bad person, it does mean you end up in a lot of arguments, which is where things start to go downhill.  Naufrago has done a very good job of illustrating exactly what makes the Mjolnir not worth using, but his point goes over your head.  What really gets people riled up isn't that you disagreed, but that you often come across as disrespectful in doing so.  In this case, you're dismissing his entire statement as nonsense.  Even if you weren't trying to be rude, it certainly sounded that way to everyone else.  The combination of being wrong and disrespectful absolutely drives people crazy and it's why you get so much anger thrown at you.  You also have a habit of getting worked up when people repeatedly disagree with you, which means that these arguments have a tendency to turn ugly.  It even happened on the forum thread that was cross-posted here.  People will always disagree with you on the internet, even when you're right, but as a general rule the first person to get angry ends up looking like a jackass and is probably going to bear the brunt of the moderation.


In this particular instance, you need to understand resource management.  Flux and OP are limited resources.  They aren't the only resources a ship has, but they're probably the most important when it comes to design.  The heart of making a good ship is to use these limited resources to the greatest possible effect.  That's what makes the Mjolnir bad.  The damage output is fine; it's pretty typical for a weapon in that category.  However, other large ballistics can give you the same damage for a much lower flux cost.  This means the Mjolnir is a poor choice, because why would I use one thing when something else can do the same job cheaper?  You can build your ship to compensate for the Mjolnir's high flux cost, but that's not really solving the problem.  That's flux you can't use to keep shields up or fire other weapons, or maybe it's OP you had to spend on vents instead of something else.  If you went for a more efficient option, you could get the same damage output and something else in addition using the same amount of your resources.

This doesn't mean you can't use the Mjolnir or that it doesn't work.  You can certainly throw some on a ship, go click on things, and have them blow up.  It's just worse than other means to the same end, which means it should be changed to be competitive with the other options.  That's another thing you should understand.  If something is working badly (or too well), the best thing you can do for the game is to call attention to it and explain why it should be changed.  Defending something that's bad does nobody any favors.  It's not a matter of sticking up for the underdog; pointing out problems so they can be fixed helps the game get better, which I'm sure is something you want.  This game is very early in development, so balance will be changed regularly and user feedback is one of the best tools Alex has for this.  Think of everyone as a playtester.  We aren't just here to fly around and blow up spaceships; we're here to help making flying around and blowing up spaceships as much fun as it can possibly be, and that means giving feedback on potential improvements.
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Mattk50

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Re: Mjolnir Cannon: Anyone Use It?
« Reply #86 on: August 21, 2012, 02:52:54 PM »

I think this comes down to the point that flux does matter, just making sure its clear and in a single sentence...
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armoredcookie

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Re: Mjolnir Cannon: Anyone Use It?
« Reply #87 on: August 21, 2012, 03:18:12 PM »

No need for any personal attacks or bashing on this forum. Enough is enough and we're almost at the point where we can say we're somewhat civilized, that the moment any of us express an opinion or a confusion we don't get immediately shut down by the community. That being said, I hope that Catra as well as the rest of us can restrain ourselves (including yourself voyager).

Now back on the topic of Mjolnir balance, anyone like the idea of the Mjolnir being a way to suddenly slow down other ships? (like how the graviton beam gradually reduces speed, but instead of a beam, implemented in one powerful shot)
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Sproginator

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Re: Mjolnir Cannon: Anyone Use It?
« Reply #88 on: August 21, 2012, 04:21:24 PM »

No need for any personal attacks or bashing on this forum. Enough is enough and we're almost at the point where we can say we're somewhat civilized, that the moment any of us express an opinion or a confusion we don't get immediately shut down by the community. That being said, I hope that Catra as well as the rest of us can restrain ourselves (including yourself voyager).

Now back on the topic of Mjolnir balance, anyone like the idea of the Mjolnir being a way to suddenly slow down other ships? (like how the graviton beam gradually reduces speed, but instead of a beam, implemented in one powerful shot)
Easy , just increase the Impact of it, using that, I just made a tractor beam and DAMN it is AWESOME!
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Catra

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Re: Mjolnir Cannon: Anyone Use It?
« Reply #89 on: August 21, 2012, 04:32:03 PM »

not in particular, there's enough ways to close / widen the gap.

i think we just gotta settle that it's a novelty weapon that is supposed to be used by one ship with one specific loadout.
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