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What would you like to see in Blackrock?

More ships
- 530 (24.4%)
More weapons
- 343 (15.8%)
More campaign features
- 314 (14.5%)
Space monsters
- 455 (21%)
More lore
- 132 (6.1%)
More music
- 81 (3.7%)
More portraits
- 113 (5.2%)
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- 200 (9.2%)

Total Members Voted: 977


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Author Topic: [0.9.1a] Blackrock Drive Yards v0.9.5a (10.06.2019) - Hotfix released  (Read 1387469 times)

SaberCherry

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Re: [0.9.1a] Blackrock Drive Yards v0.9.5a (10.06.2019) - Hotfix released
« Reply #2985 on: September 10, 2020, 11:07:05 AM »

I was playing with this and Nexerlin and noticed that Blackrock ship prices are not affected by D-mods.  Other ship prices are, though.
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Kaitol

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Re: [0.9.1a] Blackrock Drive Yards v0.9.5a (10.06.2019) - Hotfix released
« Reply #2986 on: September 13, 2020, 05:24:34 PM »

So, recently decided to give BDY a proper playthrough with Nexerelin, since it's been almost a decade since the last time I gave it a thorough once-over, overall still great, still love the aesthetics (particularly the blinking lights and other lighting effects, very well done). There were a couple of minor things that bugged me though.

I've noticed the Imaginos kill itself from either full hull or close to it several times when using its ship system to teleport next to an enemy ship and both immediately exploding. I know it has resistance to ship explosions but it doesn't quite seem to be enough to save the AI from itself, so I usually just fly it myself in smaller battles or leave it undeployed. If possible I think adding a half-second of maybe 80% damage resistance after teleporting would probably solve it without unduly affecting balance? Unless your intention is for it to only really be a player-utilized ship.

This next one is a bit nit-picky, but I don't suppose there's any way to tweak things to disincentivize AI-controlled Blackrock fleets from deploying Hawkmoths and Eschatons instead of actual warships, is there? I've seen multiple fights they could have won if they'd just deployed their Karkinos at the start instead of a giant mass of Goblins, Robberflies, and logistics ships. Although the big example of this I'm thinking of might have partly been because the Eschaton was the flagship of the invasion fleet (despite not having an officer in command in battle, which is a little odd) and one Hawkmoth had an officer. I realize they're supposed to be reasonably capable combat ships, and it's great when they're in merchant fleets or can help out the fast patrols they're fueling, but in proper grand invasion and defense fleets, it's just kinda disheartening to see a pack of three Onslaughts charging forward and knowing you could have taken them on even terms if the AI had just bothered to deploy its capital ships, but they didn't, so you're just going to get hammered. I understand fleet selection might not be something people can really mess with, but I figured it was worth at least asking.
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Alphascrub

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Re: [0.9.1a] Blackrock Drive Yards v0.9.5a (10.06.2019) - Hotfix released
« Reply #2987 on: September 21, 2020, 07:59:29 PM »



I've noticed the Imaginos kill itself from either full hull or close to it several times when using its ship system to teleport next to an enemy ship and both immediately exploding. I know it has resistance to ship explosions but it doesn't quite seem to be enough to save the AI from itself, so I usually just fly it myself in smaller battles or leave it undeployed. If possible I think adding a half-second of maybe 80% damage resistance after teleporting would probably solve it without unduly affecting balance? Unless your intention is for it to only really be a player-utilized ship.



I cant speak for anyone else but whenever I use the Imaginos I generally use LRMs (Blot out the sun) to support it. Basically you fly with the LRMs and either use them as screening yourself or suck them in for a bit of damage. The AI seems to struggle with dealing incoming LRMs, Shooting you and shooting the LRMS. Its a bit risky cause you can pull LRMs into yourself with bad timing. Outsides of that it leaves the other ships unprepared for you jumping in out dropping damage into their unprotected rears as they generally consider the LRM swarms to be a greater threat than you. Your phase pull can even pull LRMS into them if time things just right. I use a ion cannon or a sunjet since between your speed, built in pd, and phase you shouldnt really need anymore defense. For me thats the most effective way to run the ship. It expensive to run but like most of BRDs ships pretty unique. The damage resistance your talking about might a bit much, but hey im not the one owns the mod so thats my two cents. Keep im mind the imaginos has probably one of the fastest vent rates in the entire game when combined with the right skills and hullmods. That alone is very powerful considering the ship and it special phase ability to absorb incoming damage and send it back at the enemy. It comes from a time where super frigates were all the rage in SS modding community. Its seen some balance passes like most if not all of the old super frigates that were created back then.
This is how I run it on my current play through. The playthrough is very modded in terms of factions and im running the all skilled up mod to uncap my levels.

https://gyazo.com/017c58d046642d2ef8bce3a52f3d7c57
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SaberCherry

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Re: [0.9.1a] Blackrock Drive Yards v0.9.5a (10.06.2019) - Hotfix released
« Reply #2988 on: September 22, 2020, 05:47:26 PM »

I'm running lots of carriers with variety of fighters, plus the Combat Analytics mod.  And so far, on any ship, Dipteron outperforms everything else in every battle.  On paper it looks like a slightly-better Talon with no OP cost or crew cost, but whether it's the Shredder's range or something else, it just beats everything.  E.g.  I've got an Astral with Spark, Lux, Piranha, Thunder, Ember, and Dipteron, and Dipteron wins in damage in each encounter.  Same on ships with other systems like Drover and Heron and some random non-vanilla carriers, whether competing with high-cost wings like Daggers or even  .  And it's particularly noticeable on Phaeton and Colossus, because the downsides of Converted Hangers (increased OP cost and crew losses) are completely negated by free drones.

Considering their performance, I'd still use them at a cost of 10 even if they were crewed, and maybe 15 uncrewed.  But maybe downgrading to a Light Shredder and raising the price to ~4 OP would fit better with its theme as being "Cheap and useful in swarms".
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Harmful Mechanic

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Re: [0.9.1a] Blackrock Drive Yards v0.9.5a (10.06.2019) - Hotfix released
« Reply #2989 on: September 22, 2020, 06:13:01 PM »

I bet you anything it's the weapon arc - most vanilla fighter weapons are fixed or have extremely small (5º) arcs - whereas most Blackrock fighters have 20º-30º weapon mounts. That means they can make a lot more marginal shots, and coupled with the burst-fire, higher projectile speed, and greater range, I could see that easily translating to a much higher average hit rate.

Now that BRDY includes a single-barrel Shredder, you can just swap it out in the files and see if halved firepower fixes anything.
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SaberCherry

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Re: [0.9.1a] Blackrock Drive Yards v0.9.5a (10.06.2019) - Hotfix released
« Reply #2990 on: September 22, 2020, 06:17:44 PM »

I bet you anything it's the weapon arc - most vanilla fighter weapons are fixed or have extremely small (5º) arcs - whereas most Blackrock fighters have 20º-30º weapon mounts. That means they can make a lot more marginal shots, and coupled with the burst-fire, higher projectile speed, and greater range, I could see that easily translating to a much higher average hit rate.

Now that BRDY includes a single-barrel Shredder, you can just swap it out in the files and see if halved firepower fixes anything.
Oh, good suggestion, I'll try that and see if it changes the effectiveness.  I have not watched them closely in the simulator to see what's going on, but subjectively, in battle, it certainly seems like they are firing more often. 
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SaberCherry

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Re: [0.9.1a] Blackrock Drive Yards v0.9.5a (10.06.2019) - Hotfix released
« Reply #2991 on: September 30, 2020, 04:44:39 PM »

I bet you anything it's the weapon arc - most vanilla fighter weapons are fixed or have extremely small (5º) arcs - whereas most Blackrock fighters have 20º-30º weapon mounts. That means they can make a lot more marginal shots, and coupled with the burst-fire, higher projectile speed, and greater range, I could see that easily translating to a much higher average hit rate.

Now that BRDY includes a single-barrel Shredder, you can just swap it out in the files and see if halved firepower fixes anything.
That was indeed a very valuable post.  It was not immediately clear how to swap out one Shredder for the other because it used an alphanumeric code for the weapon - I probably could have looked it up, but instead, I changed the default 51.3 degree arc to 5.13 degrees.  That partially solved the problem.  Not totally - it's now kind of middle-of-the-pack, or maybe in the bottom 3rd, when competing with 8-12 OP manned fighters.  Still, a big improvement.  Next I'll try switching it to the Light Shredder as well.

I think fighters are very sensitive to projectile speed, though, because it is on the same order as fighter speed, and relative to the fighters' velocity rather than absolute, but it doesn't seem like the "should I fire now" calculations are done accordingly.  This is especially obvious for Warthogs armed with Light Mortars, which can't hit anything because it fires them while flying backwards and they simply don't make it to the target.  So high velocity weapons might make fighters much more deadly for purely AI reasons.  Sparks, with a sustained DPS of 64, don't seem particularly amazing on paper but they don't miss.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2020, 05:01:35 PM by SaberCherry »
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Cycerin

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Re: [0.9.1a] Blackrock Drive Yards v0.9.5a (10.06.2019) - Hotfix released
« Reply #2992 on: October 01, 2020, 11:24:39 AM »

Good posts, I think you're right about the Dipteron wing. 0 OP cost fighters need to be kind of trash to justify the fact you can just slap them on without thinking about it. I'll look it over and make adjustments to bring it in line. Might be the best call to make a reduced arc and single-barrel shredder as it will keep them reliable but greatly weaken their ship killing potential, I like keeping them OP free (or maybe bump to 1 OP cost, depending)

I would also think the large amount of raw, but often inconsequential frag damage inflates the numbers in the combat analytics mod a bit, but on the other hand I haven't used that mod much. But if you are using it as the main way to measure performance, I figured it was worth mentioning

I was playing with this and Nexerlin and noticed that Blackrock ship prices are not affected by D-mods.  Other ship prices are, though.

Bizarre, couldn't reproduce this one so I must have fixed it at some point
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Modo44

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Re: [0.9.1a] Blackrock Drive Yards v0.9.5a (10.06.2019) - Hotfix released
« Reply #2993 on: October 01, 2020, 10:25:09 PM »

Free "trash" drones" also a) allow for easy point defence saturation so your carriers can bring 100% Vespas, and 2) allow for way stronger builds on ships with 1-2 wing slots by simply saving OP while still bringing something. Free weapons of any kind tend to break balance.
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Harmful Mechanic

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Re: [0.9.1a] Blackrock Drive Yards v0.9.5a (10.06.2019) - Hotfix released
« Reply #2994 on: October 02, 2020, 01:03:03 PM »

I think the arc is fine, but bumping up the cost to 1 OP is a good idea because it solves the main issue of 0 OP fighters; one wing and many wings having the same cost. This way, with the single Shredder it's still useful to have one wing, and the cost scales with effectiveness. Lower DPS is offset by a higher hit rate and greater range... Should hit the sweet spot.
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SaberCherry

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Re: [0.9.1a] Blackrock Drive Yards v0.9.5a (10.06.2019) - Hotfix released
« Reply #2995 on: October 02, 2020, 09:54:11 PM »

I would also think the large amount of raw, but often inconsequential frag damage inflates the numbers in the combat analytics mod a bit, but on the other hand I haven't used that mod much. But if you are using it as the main way to measure performance, I figured it was worth mentioning
The analytics mod takes type into account (or rather, it probably ignores type and just intercepts the numbers); you can see this because for example a single Hammer Torpedo hit will do 750 shield damage, but much more ship damage (it does not distinguish between armor and hull when tracking ship damage).  It's a really useful mod for evaluating performance; I just wish it could track the simulator, too.
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MesoTroniK

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Re: [0.9.1a] Blackrock Drive Yards v0.9.5a (10.06.2019) - Hotfix released
« Reply #2996 on: October 03, 2020, 12:23:01 PM »

The analytics mod takes type into account (or rather, it probably ignores type and just intercepts the numbers); you can see this because for example a single Hammer Torpedo hit will do 750 shield damage, but much more ship damage (it does not distinguish between armor and hull when tracking ship damage).  It's a really useful mod for evaluating performance; I just wish it could track the simulator, too.
More like it constantly feeds you mis- and dis-information...

It cannot detect EMP arcs, AOE damage, scripted damage (even vanilla scripted damage), scripted submunitions, and does not handles beams against shields very well. The amounts of things it will not analyze correctly is simply staggering even just with vanilla, and even more so adding in mods.

Avanitia

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Re: [0.9.1a] Blackrock Drive Yards v0.9.5a (10.06.2019) - Hotfix released
« Reply #2997 on: October 03, 2020, 01:44:44 PM »

Some weapons are bugged entirely as well.
Spoiler
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As you can see here Plasma Cannon shows as if it dealt 0 damage, even though ship used it in battle to kill multiple enemy ships.
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IonDragonX

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Re: [0.9.1a] Blackrock Drive Yards v0.9.5a (10.06.2019) - Hotfix released
« Reply #2998 on: November 07, 2020, 11:06:19 AM »

@Cycerin
I love the mod ever since I saw it on WadeStar's youtube promo.

Question: is it possible to start a campaign & have the Blackrock homeworld in a random location? Right now its to the SE of core but could it be NE, NW or SW? It would make new campaigns less predictable.
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