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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: [0.9.1a] Blackrock Drive Yards  (Read 1790843 times)

Ishman

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Re: [0.9.1a] Blackrock Drive Yards v0.9.5a (10.06.2019) - Hotfix released
« Reply #2940 on: May 23, 2020, 09:23:59 AM »

Spoiler
Hi, this is my favourite faction mod by a very long way. Everything about Blackrock is fantastic, and I commend you for your work on it.

I have, however, found something you should be aware of. Someone else noticed the same thing, on the previous page, and it appears to have gone unnoticed, so let me reiterate it here.

The Vespa is completely overpowered. It offers the most powerful unguided payload available outside of the Cobra Bomber, and it does so at several times the speed of its Reaper-class rival. The result is a torpedo dealing 2500 damage (plus 1500 EMP damage) travelling at speeds high enough to catch destroyers.

This alone is very strong, though not enough to be overpowered. In fact, the Vespa bombers are balanced in most cases through the following drawback:

Their flight path takes them directly into danger, so you are more likely to lose them than you are most other bombers. Even if they don’t die, their flight path leads them far away from your carrier, making them take a lot longer than most bombers to return to the ship. As a result of Vespas dying and taking a long time to return, your fighter reinforcement takes a beating. If you field Vespas, you spend a long time waiting for them to be ready again.

Unless you use the Vespas on the Astral.

Now you have 12 Vespas travelling faster than any other bomber, launching torpedoes faster than any other torpedo, each torpedo doing more damage than any other weapon save the Reaper, each torpedo almost impossible to evade and which PD systems can’t kill in time, fielded on a ship that can teleport the bombers straight back after they have finished their bombing run, completely negating the only weakness that renders them balanced.

12 Vespas. Dealing 30,000 damage.

Two six-wing Vespa runs can kill an Onslaught from full shield and full health, and an officer-controlled Astral can land that 30,000 damage nuke over and over and over again.

This wasn’t playtested. It can’t have been.

To make the most of this broken combo, pair your Astral with a couple of lesser carriers using fighters and interceptors. These keep your Astral safe from enemy fighter wings, and they help by overloading the weapon and PD systems of your target enemy.

Well, at least you no longer have to Drover spam?

Anyway. Still, best mod ever. Sick work all around.
[close]

Astral's egregiously overpowered, any mod bomber can do the equivalent (seriously, just throw some other good bomber on to compare). The fury torpedo's ENERGY damage type confuses your impressions of it - it's effective enough against shields to force overloads and has enough per-hit damage to chew through the armor damage reduction calculation and expose bare hull - as is intended for it's all around nature.

Using mod weaponry outside of its faction is a silly comparison, it's simple to pair things together such that you remove weaknesses or enhance factional strengths to the point of something being broken.

Fighters are simply broken and shouldn't be used in balance discussions till the next version's changes are seen and mods update as needed.

Even more hilarious is the intimation that an entirely unscreened capital ship *should* be able to survive 12 wings of combined bombing damage output of *any* bomber that isn't a joke (piranha).

And just so we're clear about how broken fighters are - that astral's DP cost is *still* less effective than it's equivalent DP of drovers & sparks. Fighter Recall is bad, reserve deployment is broken.
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Aereto

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Re: [0.9.1a] Blackrock Drive Yards v0.9.5a (10.06.2019) - Hotfix released
« Reply #2941 on: May 24, 2020, 10:08:21 PM »

Spoiler
Hi, this is my favourite faction mod by a very long way. Everything about Blackrock is fantastic, and I commend you for your work on it.

I have, however, found something you should be aware of. Someone else noticed the same thing, on the previous page, and it appears to have gone unnoticed, so let me reiterate it here.

The Vespa is completely overpowered. It offers the most powerful unguided payload available outside of the Cobra Bomber, and it does so at several times the speed of its Reaper-class rival. The result is a torpedo dealing 2500 damage (plus 1500 EMP damage) travelling at speeds high enough to catch destroyers.

This alone is very strong, though not enough to be overpowered. In fact, the Vespa bombers are balanced in most cases through the following drawback:

Their flight path takes them directly into danger, so you are more likely to lose them than you are most other bombers. Even if they don’t die, their flight path leads them far away from your carrier, making them take a lot longer than most bombers to return to the ship. As a result of Vespas dying and taking a long time to return, your fighter reinforcement takes a beating. If you field Vespas, you spend a long time waiting for them to be ready again.

Unless you use the Vespas on the Astral.

Now you have 12 Vespas travelling faster than any other bomber, launching torpedoes faster than any other torpedo, each torpedo doing more damage than any other weapon save the Reaper, each torpedo almost impossible to evade and which PD systems can’t kill in time, fielded on a ship that can teleport the bombers straight back after they have finished their bombing run, completely negating the only weakness that renders them balanced.

12 Vespas. Dealing 30,000 damage.

Two six-wing Vespa runs can kill an Onslaught from full shield and full health, and an officer-controlled Astral can land that 30,000 damage nuke over and over and over again.

This wasn’t playtested. It can’t have been.

To make the most of this broken combo, pair your Astral with a couple of lesser carriers using fighters and interceptors. These keep your Astral safe from enemy fighter wings, and they help by overloading the weapon and PD systems of your target enemy.

Well, at least you no longer have to Drover spam?

Anyway. Still, best mod ever. Sick work all around.
[close]

Astral's egregiously overpowered, any mod bomber can do the equivalent (seriously, just throw some other good bomber on to compare). The fury torpedo's ENERGY damage type confuses your impressions of it - it's effective enough against shields to force overloads and has enough per-hit damage to chew through the armor damage reduction calculation and expose bare hull - as is intended for it's all around nature.

Using mod weaponry outside of its faction is a silly comparison, it's simple to pair things together such that you remove weaknesses or enhance factional strengths to the point of something being broken.

Fighters are simply broken and shouldn't be used in balance discussions till the next version's changes are seen and mods update as needed.

Even more hilarious is the intimation that an entirely unscreened capital ship *should* be able to survive 12 wings of combined bombing damage output of *any* bomber that isn't a joke (piranha).

And just so we're clear about how broken fighters are - that astral's DP cost is *still* less effective than it's equivalent DP of drovers & sparks. Fighter Recall is bad, reserve deployment is broken.

Either way, I cannot help but watch the resulting carnage my faction fleet fields when I make the Vespa one of the bombers my faction uses after getting my hands on their blueprints. My flagship didn't get in on the early action in time, and they were just using cruiser carriers.
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Cycerin

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Re: [0.9.1a] Blackrock Drive Yards v0.9.5a (10.06.2019) - Hotfix released
« Reply #2942 on: May 26, 2020, 04:35:27 AM »

Thanks for the feedback. Yeah I think the Vespa needs adjustment but It's looking like the next update will come after the next vanilla update, 'cause I don't want to fork my wip stuff with the limited time and interest for Starsector modding I've had recently.
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mora

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Re: [0.9.1a] Blackrock Drive Yards v0.9.5a (10.06.2019) - Hotfix released
« Reply #2943 on: July 06, 2020, 12:04:20 PM »

The 0-Series Nevermore is tagged as brdy-rare instead of brdy_rare (dash instead of underscore.) Because of this, the BRDY doesn't know it, making it unobtainable.
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Chikanuk

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Re: [0.9.1a] Blackrock Drive Yards v0.9.5a (10.06.2019) - Hotfix released
« Reply #2944 on: July 07, 2020, 12:57:12 AM »

Its maybe late, but i disagree with Vaspas being OP. With Astral many mod bombers is overpowered. Cuz imho its really hard to do mod wich will be balanced both on its own, with vanilla and with over mods at the same time (if not impossible).
Try Myrmidons for example (from Kadur mod if i remember correctly). With astral they 1shot any ship smaller than capital in one go, first torpedoes overcharge shield (even with pure HE damage) and rest just blow ship to pieces. And any capital with 50%+ flux will be destroyer in same way. In some late game fights i easy can deal 1k+ damage with this combo.
But put them on different carrier - and they suddenly become pretty mediocre, cuz they slow, cost 30 op and easy to target with big guns.
Sane with vespas - they pretty fragile and take wierd moving paths. Its just the fact, what astral negate weaknesses of most bombers.


P.S. I want space monsters!
« Last Edit: July 07, 2020, 02:17:51 AM by Chikanuk »
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Howkin

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Re: [0.9.1a] Blackrock Drive Yards v0.9.5a (10.06.2019) - Hotfix released
« Reply #2945 on: July 22, 2020, 04:37:41 PM »

Any chance of support for Commissioned Crews ?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2020, 04:52:55 PM by Howkin »
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Faeren

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Re: [0.9.1a] Blackrock Drive Yards v0.9.5a (10.06.2019) - Hotfix released
« Reply #2946 on: August 15, 2020, 03:04:37 PM »

Small suggestion for the Hammerclaw, given it imparts so much force to the target that they are shoved backwards, it should also push back the Gonodactylus firing it.
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Ali

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Re: [0.9.1a] Blackrock Drive Yards v0.9.5a (10.06.2019) - Hotfix released
« Reply #2947 on: August 16, 2020, 04:12:50 AM »

Missile does the knockback, not the ship, would not wan see that change sorry.
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Faeren

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Re: [0.9.1a] Blackrock Drive Yards v0.9.5a (10.06.2019) - Hotfix released
« Reply #2948 on: August 20, 2020, 02:11:04 AM »

Missile does the knockback, not the ship, would not wan see that change sorry.
Newton's third law.
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SirHartley

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Re: [0.9.1a] Blackrock Drive Yards v0.9.5a (10.06.2019) - Hotfix released
« Reply #2949 on: August 20, 2020, 02:28:36 AM »

Missile does the knockback, not the ship, would not wan see that change sorry.
Newton's third law.

Missiles do not have recoil.
Since they have an engine assembly, they do not impart force onto a firing mechanism.

Of course, if the missile is ejected and then ignites, the ejection would cause recoil - but no more than a common gun, which also doesn't push back ships in Starsector to a noticeable degree.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2020, 02:32:06 AM by SirHartley »
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Faeren

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Re: [0.9.1a] Blackrock Drive Yards v0.9.5a (10.06.2019) - Hotfix released
« Reply #2950 on: August 20, 2020, 02:24:37 PM »

I stand corrected.
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SaberCherry

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Re: [0.9.1a] Blackrock Drive Yards v0.9.5a (10.06.2019) - Hotfix released
« Reply #2951 on: September 10, 2020, 11:07:05 AM »

I was playing with this and Nexerlin and noticed that Blackrock ship prices are not affected by D-mods.  Other ship prices are, though.
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Kaitol

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Re: [0.9.1a] Blackrock Drive Yards v0.9.5a (10.06.2019) - Hotfix released
« Reply #2952 on: September 13, 2020, 05:24:34 PM »

So, recently decided to give BDY a proper playthrough with Nexerelin, since it's been almost a decade since the last time I gave it a thorough once-over, overall still great, still love the aesthetics (particularly the blinking lights and other lighting effects, very well done). There were a couple of minor things that bugged me though.

I've noticed the Imaginos kill itself from either full hull or close to it several times when using its ship system to teleport next to an enemy ship and both immediately exploding. I know it has resistance to ship explosions but it doesn't quite seem to be enough to save the AI from itself, so I usually just fly it myself in smaller battles or leave it undeployed. If possible I think adding a half-second of maybe 80% damage resistance after teleporting would probably solve it without unduly affecting balance? Unless your intention is for it to only really be a player-utilized ship.

This next one is a bit nit-picky, but I don't suppose there's any way to tweak things to disincentivize AI-controlled Blackrock fleets from deploying Hawkmoths and Eschatons instead of actual warships, is there? I've seen multiple fights they could have won if they'd just deployed their Karkinos at the start instead of a giant mass of Goblins, Robberflies, and logistics ships. Although the big example of this I'm thinking of might have partly been because the Eschaton was the flagship of the invasion fleet (despite not having an officer in command in battle, which is a little odd) and one Hawkmoth had an officer. I realize they're supposed to be reasonably capable combat ships, and it's great when they're in merchant fleets or can help out the fast patrols they're fueling, but in proper grand invasion and defense fleets, it's just kinda disheartening to see a pack of three Onslaughts charging forward and knowing you could have taken them on even terms if the AI had just bothered to deploy its capital ships, but they didn't, so you're just going to get hammered. I understand fleet selection might not be something people can really mess with, but I figured it was worth at least asking.
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Alphascrub

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Re: [0.9.1a] Blackrock Drive Yards v0.9.5a (10.06.2019) - Hotfix released
« Reply #2953 on: September 21, 2020, 07:59:29 PM »



I've noticed the Imaginos kill itself from either full hull or close to it several times when using its ship system to teleport next to an enemy ship and both immediately exploding. I know it has resistance to ship explosions but it doesn't quite seem to be enough to save the AI from itself, so I usually just fly it myself in smaller battles or leave it undeployed. If possible I think adding a half-second of maybe 80% damage resistance after teleporting would probably solve it without unduly affecting balance? Unless your intention is for it to only really be a player-utilized ship.



I cant speak for anyone else but whenever I use the Imaginos I generally use LRMs (Blot out the sun) to support it. Basically you fly with the LRMs and either use them as screening yourself or suck them in for a bit of damage. The AI seems to struggle with dealing incoming LRMs, Shooting you and shooting the LRMS. Its a bit risky cause you can pull LRMs into yourself with bad timing. Outsides of that it leaves the other ships unprepared for you jumping in out dropping damage into their unprotected rears as they generally consider the LRM swarms to be a greater threat than you. Your phase pull can even pull LRMS into them if time things just right. I use a ion cannon or a sunjet since between your speed, built in pd, and phase you shouldnt really need anymore defense. For me thats the most effective way to run the ship. It expensive to run but like most of BRDs ships pretty unique. The damage resistance your talking about might a bit much, but hey im not the one owns the mod so thats my two cents. Keep im mind the imaginos has probably one of the fastest vent rates in the entire game when combined with the right skills and hullmods. That alone is very powerful considering the ship and it special phase ability to absorb incoming damage and send it back at the enemy. It comes from a time where super frigates were all the rage in SS modding community. Its seen some balance passes like most if not all of the old super frigates that were created back then.
This is how I run it on my current play through. The playthrough is very modded in terms of factions and im running the all skilled up mod to uncap my levels.

https://gyazo.com/017c58d046642d2ef8bce3a52f3d7c57
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SaberCherry

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Re: [0.9.1a] Blackrock Drive Yards v0.9.5a (10.06.2019) - Hotfix released
« Reply #2954 on: September 22, 2020, 05:47:26 PM »

I'm running lots of carriers with variety of fighters, plus the Combat Analytics mod.  And so far, on any ship, Dipteron outperforms everything else in every battle.  On paper it looks like a slightly-better Talon with no OP cost or crew cost, but whether it's the Shredder's range or something else, it just beats everything.  E.g.  I've got an Astral with Spark, Lux, Piranha, Thunder, Ember, and Dipteron, and Dipteron wins in damage in each encounter.  Same on ships with other systems like Drover and Heron and some random non-vanilla carriers, whether competing with high-cost wings like Daggers or even  .  And it's particularly noticeable on Phaeton and Colossus, because the downsides of Converted Hangers (increased OP cost and crew losses) are completely negated by free drones.

Considering their performance, I'd still use them at a cost of 10 even if they were crewed, and maybe 15 uncrewed.  But maybe downgrading to a Light Shredder and raising the price to ~4 OP would fit better with its theme as being "Cheap and useful in swarms".
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