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Author Topic: Starfarer 0.53.1a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 133965 times)

Alex

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Re: Starfarer 0.53.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #75 on: August 12, 2012, 10:18:08 PM »

@Sendrien: Keep in mind that you can dissipate soft flux while it's up, and - this is kind of an obscure bit - it removes the shield upkeep cost.

So you're building 625 hard flux per second, but you're also not paying 750 soft flux per second, *and* the damage your shields take is reduced by a factor of 10. If you've got some soft flux build up and you need to lower it without bringing down your shields, Fortress Shield offers you a much faster way to do that than simply stopping to fire - at the expense of hard flux. This is true even if you're not under any fire at all - you'll dissipate soft flux faster with Fortress Shield on than off (provided that shields stay on), and any damage coming in just makes the difference bigger.


Hmm. For simplicity's sake, it really just ought to convert your shield upkeep to hard flux at some fraction, instead of having a separate value for it.
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Reshy

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Re: Starfarer 0.53.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #76 on: August 12, 2012, 10:43:40 PM »

@Sendrien: Keep in mind that you can dissipate soft flux while it's up, and - this is kind of an obscure bit - it removes the shield upkeep cost.

So you're building 625 hard flux per second, but you're also not paying 750 soft flux per second, *and* the damage your shields take is reduced by a factor of 10. If you've got some soft flux build up and you need to lower it without bringing down your shields, Fortress Shield offers you a much faster way to do that than simply stopping to fire - at the expense of hard flux. This is true even if you're not under any fire at all - you'll dissipate soft flux faster with Fortress Shield on than off (provided that shields stay on), and any damage coming in just makes the difference bigger.


Hmm. For simplicity's sake, it really just ought to convert your shield upkeep to hard flux at some fraction, instead of having a separate value for it.


Question, does Stabilized Shields reduce that cost?
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KDR_11k

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Re: Starfarer 0.53.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #77 on: August 13, 2012, 12:09:00 AM »

This is my first time posting something like this, so if this the wrong place to put it im sorry.


SOOO A Venture and 2 Close Support Lasher along with some other ships enter a battle with a Buffalo Fire support destroyer and others. As soon as the buffalo come's with in sight of my fleet.... My Lashers fire every single missile they have at it in no time. My venture fires about half of both of its racks at it as well. Only take half of all the missiles reach it and the buffalo gets sent to oblivion. The rest of the missiles run out of fuel and float off into space.... Leaving my Lashers with out and real fire power and my venture half way to losing it's.

What im asking for is there going to be a fix to ships firing WAY too many missiles at one single ship?

Usually they only go all out like that when they're about to die and want to make sure they get those missiles off at all. But if your fleet wasn't already damaged I have no idea what caused that since they're always very conservative when I play.
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IIE16 Yoshi

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Re: Starfarer 0.53.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #78 on: August 13, 2012, 12:27:50 AM »

This is my first time posting something like this, so if this the wrong place to put it im sorry.


SOOO A Venture and 2 Close Support Lasher along with some other ships enter a battle with a Buffalo Fire support destroyer and others. As soon as the buffalo come's with in sight of my fleet.... My Lashers fire every single missile they have at it in no time. My venture fires about half of both of its racks at it as well. Only take half of all the missiles reach it and the buffalo gets sent to oblivion. The rest of the missiles run out of fuel and float off into space.... Leaving my Lashers with out and real fire power and my venture half way to losing it's.

What im asking for is there going to be a fix to ships firing WAY too many missiles at one single ship?

Usually they only go all out like that when they're about to die and want to make sure they get those missiles off at all. But if your fleet wasn't already damaged I have no idea what caused that since they're always very conservative when I play.
The enemy AI is never conservative with their missiles. But then again, I'm now in the habit of just not using shields at all. Only one faction in Ascendancy has shielded ships. All the rest rely on PD, artful flying and some seriously decent armour. On the plus side, because I never raise shields, most enemy ships are ready to burn off their harpoons at the start of a fight, thinking they can get their missiles through the hailstorm of bullets that are put out by Antediluvian guns.
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KDR_11k

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Re: Starfarer 0.53.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #79 on: August 13, 2012, 03:25:06 AM »

Dunno, Lashers and Buffalos only throw one missile/volley in my direction at a time usually with serious delays between them and I'm flying a Shade. They only start spamming when they're damaged.

As for Hyperion vs Paragon, does that thing actually have the damage output to make a Paragon care? I've never fought a Paragon one on one (always as part of a larger fleet and even concentrated fire has difficulty bringing the Paragon down before it can retreat) but the thing's always been extremely durable even if it's not particularly dangerous in the hands of the AI. Overcoming its shields and then hurting its armor and hull enough to make a dent requires some serious firepower and that was before Fortress Shields. That's the reason why I don't assume an Apogee can beat a Paragon (however it can stalemate against the Paragon).
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TaLaR

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Re: Starfarer 0.53.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #80 on: August 13, 2012, 03:32:31 AM »

As for Hyperion vs Paragon, does that thing actually have the damage output to make a Paragon care?

Player-controlled Hyperion can ignore shields (AI can't raise fast enough to block 1st shot after teleportation, which is enough with pair of heavy/am/mining blasters) and can get enough flux/shield with proper build to reliably survive retreat after teleportation, so it's just question of time.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2012, 03:35:30 AM by TaLaR »
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Sendrien

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Re: Starfarer 0.53.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #81 on: August 13, 2012, 06:34:43 AM »

@Sendrien: Keep in mind that you can dissipate soft flux while it's up, and - this is kind of an obscure bit - it removes the shield upkeep cost.

So you're building 625 hard flux per second, but you're also not paying 750 soft flux per second, *and* the damage your shields take is reduced by a factor of 10. If you've got some soft flux build up and you need to lower it without bringing down your shields, Fortress Shield offers you a much faster way to do that than simply stopping to fire - at the expense of hard flux. This is true even if you're not under any fire at all - you'll dissipate soft flux faster with Fortress Shield on than off (provided that shields stay on), and any damage coming in just makes the difference bigger.


Hmm. For simplicity's sake, it really just ought to convert your shield upkeep to hard flux at some fraction, instead of having a separate value for it.

Unless I am missing something entirely here, I have never been able to dissipate my flux levels using Fortress Shield. As soon as you turn it on, it gradually increases your flux levels until you overload. At the moment, it seems as if it generates a hard flux build up while turning off all flux dissipation for the ship. Even if I max out my flux dissipation, use no weapons on the Paragon, and then turn on Fortress Shield, I will overload eventually.
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Temjin

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Re: Starfarer 0.53.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #82 on: August 13, 2012, 08:09:56 AM »

The point is, you automatically build up hard flux at a certain rate, in exchange for an increased ability to vent "soft" flux and a dramatically increased shield efficiency.
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RSS_Ornel

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Re: Starfarer 0.53.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #83 on: August 13, 2012, 12:15:40 PM »

  • Added "Elite" Enforcer variant. Shows up in the Hegemony SDF.

Nice, what loadout does it have?

2x Hvel + 1x Mauler, etc.

Quote
Balance:
  • Hyperion: increased fleet point cost to 15 (from 8 )

I have to admit that the Hyperion was a bit strong, but 15 points? That's quite the increase.

Well, the Hyperion has the combat power of a cruiser (if not the staying power of one) and better mobility than anything else in the game, by far. An FP cost in the cruiser range seems appropriate. Basically, don't look at this ship as a frigate in terms of power :)
But it can overpower even an onslaught ai vs ai and any other cap ship with equal support. so its better than cruiser, it is the equivelent of a cap ship. plus my phase cruiser dies to it easily an that has a 20 FP tag.
so even with the slight nerf to the teleport it is still massively under priced/ doesn't cost enough FP
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Sendrien

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Re: Starfarer 0.53.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #84 on: August 13, 2012, 01:34:30 PM »

The point is, you automatically build up hard flux at a certain rate, in exchange for an increased ability to vent "soft" flux and a dramatically increased shield efficiency.

This is theoretically what is supposed to happen. My point is that presently, no "soft" flux is being vented, and furthermore, the ship system is not achieving its intended function.

When Fortress Shield is on, Paragon will:

- Gain dramatically higher shield efficiency
- Generate (625?) flux per second
- Lose ability to fire weapons
- Lose its passive flux dissipation (i.e. flux dissipation/sec = 0)

For the sake of simplicity, let's assume that Paragon's shield efficiency is so high that no additional flux is added through damage. So turning on Fortress Shield simply results in 625 flux generated per second.

Contrast this with a manual solution (stop firing):

- Shield efficiency does not change
- No hard flux generation
- Lose ability to fire weapons (equivalent)
- Don't lose passive flux dissipation

Even a skeleton Paragon with 0 Ordnance Points has a passive flux dissipation of 500/second after 750 is paid for shield maintenance. Once we factor in the 625/sec hard flux generation from the Fortress shield, simply pressing X to stop all weapons fire results in a difference of 1125 flux/sec. Divide this by the shield efficiency of the Paragon (0.6) to get a figure of 1875 shield damage per second. What this means is that any time a totally unmodded Paragon is taking less than 1875 shield damage per second, it is better to stop firing than to use Fortress Shield. Any time it's higher, Fortress Shield is better.

What if the Paragon is actually modded for flux dissipation and shield efficiency?

50 Vents + Resistant Flux Conduits = 1875/sec
Stabilized Shields = 375 Shield Maintenance
Hardened Shields + Elite Crew = 0.3 Shield Efficiency

Passive Flux Dissipation = 1875-375 = 1500
Fortress Shield Hard Flux Generation = 625

Shield Damage/sec = (1500+625)/0.3 = 7083.33

So on a modded Paragon, you need to be taking over 7083 shield damage per second in order to justify using Fortress Shield instead of simply stopping to shoot. Just to put this into perspective, 7083 shield damage is equal to ~5 Storm Needlers, ~ 16 Heavy Autocannons, ~13 Plasma Cannons, or ~35 Annihilator Rocket Pods.

--

So all this to say that all I've been trying to point out is that the amount of damage you need to be taking in order for Fortress Shield to be worthwhile is simply unrealistic. Either that, or you fly around with a Paragon that has no Vents and no Hull Mods, and then it begins to make some sense. :)
« Last Edit: August 13, 2012, 01:38:04 PM by Sendrien »
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KDR_11k

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Re: Starfarer 0.53.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #85 on: August 13, 2012, 01:40:11 PM »

Then it's a bug.

Yeah, I think the Doom is seriously overpriced. Is phase cloaking really so awesome that it warrants 20 FP and 60k credits for a mediocre cruiser?
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Alex

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Re: Starfarer 0.53.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #86 on: August 13, 2012, 01:45:15 PM »

- Lose its passive flux dissipation (i.e. flux dissipation/sec = 0)

This is absolutely not true. It still dissipates soft flux. Because I'm unduly paranoid, I just verified that this is the case in the clean 0.53a-RC4 install, and isn't some kind of weird bug that manage to make it into release somehow.

I understand your point, and it would be perfectly valid if what you're saying was how it actually worked, but it doesn't :)


Just to be clear: "soft" flux is flux above the tick mark on the flux bar. Soft flux is generated by firing weapons. Hard flux is generated by taking damage on shields (with the exception of beam weapon damage, which generates soft flux).
« Last Edit: August 13, 2012, 01:49:28 PM by Alex »
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Sendrien

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Re: Starfarer 0.53.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #87 on: August 13, 2012, 01:50:12 PM »

- Lose its passive flux dissipation (i.e. flux dissipation/sec = 0)

This is absolutely not true. It still dissipates soft flux. Because I'm unduly paranoid, I just verified that this is the case in the clean 0.53a-RC4 install, and isn't some kind of weird bug that manage to make it into release somehow.


Just to be clear: "soft" flux is flux above the tick mark on the flux bar. Soft flux is generated by firing weapons. Hard flux is generated by taking damage on shields (with the exception of beam weapon damage, which generates soft flux).

Thanks for a quick reply, Alex. If Paragon doesn't lose its flux dissipation/sec, then if my flux dissipation is 1875/sec and only 625/sec is generated by Fortress Shield, and I install zero weapons while taking no damage, when I turn on Fortress Shield, why do I eventually overload?
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PCCL

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Re: Starfarer 0.53.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #88 on: August 13, 2012, 01:51:18 PM »

Now I didn't do the math on this but in my last playthrough of forlorn hope I took 2 head on bomber runs, one holding fire and one fort shielding. The fort shielding one took significantly less flux...

also pretty sure FS generates hard flux
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mmm.... tartiflette

Alex

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Re: Starfarer 0.53.1a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #89 on: August 13, 2012, 01:54:38 PM »

Yeah, the FS generates hard flux. Hard flux can not be dissipated while shields are up, that's why you eventually overload. Basically: the flux generated by the FS system can't be dissipated while shields are up. Weapon-generated flux can be.

So what happens is the "hard flux" tickmark will go up, the overall flux level will go down. When the two meet, there's no soft flux left to dissipate, so dissipation stops. At that point, keeping the FS on only makes sense if you're taking some serious burst damage - but all the way up to that, you're getting faster soft flux dissipation and much-reduced shield damage taken.
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