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Author Topic: Some AI things in .53a and a few balance issues  (Read 11438 times)

DeMatt

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Re: Some AI things in .53a and a few balance issues
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2012, 01:32:20 AM »

Light Machine Gun VS Duel Light Machine Gun
Spoiler
Ordinance Points:  3 VS 6

Damage per second:  156  VS  208

Flux per second:  19 VS 25

Shots per minute:  375 VS 500

Ammo:  1000 VS 1000

Range:  300 VS 300


That's a huge discrepancy between power and cost.  It costs twice as much for not even a 25% benefit.

There's also another issue, lore related:

"Any weapon that fires over 1200 rounds per minute is called a light machine gun"

The fire rate is 350, even if you count the Ammo Feeder, that's still only 700 which is short.
[close]
... (375-500)/375 = -0.33.  The Dual fires 33% faster than the single.  Or the single fires 25% slower than the Dual.  As to the lore problem... how many flight simulators out there actually simulate each and every bullet fired by e.g. a Hurricane Mk. IIB (12 x 0.303 Browning MGs at a rated 1150 rounds/minute each)?

Suggestions
Spoiler
Add in a medium sized Swarmer PD Launcher.

Add in a 'Regular' Mauler to fill the role of a small sized long range explosive launcher.

Add in a 'Standard' Blaster to act as a middleman between the fast firing IR pulse and the very slow firing AM blaster.

Add in a Reaper Missile Rack like the Atropos has.

Add an Ion Blaster for the medium slot that acts as a medium EMP weapon.

Add in a Small and Large Pilum Launcher. 

Add in a Medium beam PD to give more variety next to the Burst PD.

Add in a Medium 'Heavy Mortar' that fills the role of cheap low range explosive damage.

Add in a Large kinetic missile launcher.

Add in a Large Annihilator missile launcher.

Add in a Large short ranged Explosive/Kinetic weapons that are very cheap or flux efficient.

Add in a Medium and Large Atropos Launcher.
[close]
  • I rather like the idea of a medium Swarmer launcher - but I think the missiles would start having to pick multiple targets at launch, or be wasteful.
  • "Small" Blaster:  No.  I don't think there needs to be an increment of that type.
  • "Standard" Mauler:  Mmm... no.  Not every slot has to have a weapon to serve every purpose.
  • Reaper Missile Rack:  No.  Single Reaper has the same potential damage as Atropos Rack and more than Harpoon Rack (before considering upgrades).  So it'd have to be a medium weapon - and for that you've got the Cyclone Reaper.
  • Heavy Ion Cannon:  I get the feeling that the "Interdictor Beam" might just become this.
  • Small/Large Pilum Launcher:  Mmm... no.  Everything you'd put Smalls on is supposed to get up close and personal anyways, and Large has the Hurricane MIRV.
  • Medium beam PD:  You're thinking a continuous beam weapon, like a large version of the standard PD lasers?  I have trouble imagining that they'd be able to track fast enough if scaled up.
  • Medium Mortar:  I think the Assault Chaingun is close enough to suit.
  • Large Sabot Launcher:  Maybe.  Large Missile is kind of sparse.
  • Large Annihilator:  What does this do that the Typhoon launcher doesn't, besides filling up space with lots of projectiles?
  • Large short-range Explosive/Kinetic weapons:  I assume you mean "ballistic".  Nah - anything with Large slots is gonna be too slow to take advantage of it.
  • Medium/Large Atropos launchers:  I like the idea of a Medium Atropos.  Large gets me wondering "how'd you get so many 'rare' torpedoes to play with?".
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Boboid

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Re: Some AI things in .53a and a few balance issues
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2012, 07:08:56 AM »

Quick note on PD in general - I typically find that ships with the energy slots required to actually mount pd lasers in general are better off without them. There are a few exceptions for perhaps the Omen frigate where a tactical laser doesn't quite work or the Eagle with it's missing shield segment ( Though that can be fixed with extended shields and leaving the rear slots empty ). My point is that the more efficient the shield of any given ship the less PD you need for a number of reasons.
1. There's only one kinetic missile and they're fairly uncommon, even when faced with ships that mount them the fact that they're only available in Rack form means that there just isn't a lot of damage available.
2. Pd weapons are by design ( generally ) worse than their standard weapon counterparts at anything larger than say... a Hound frigate which raises the question, why would you want to dedicate slots to low risk/threat targets?

In my experience ships like the Paragon, Apogee and even the Aurora... now that I think about it even the horrible Odyssey with it's inside out and backward mount positions just don't require PD in any form. High tech ships are characterized by efficient and often omni shields, both of which are extremely solid counters to missiles AND fighters/frigates, the latter can be shot by any weapon type and the former can simply be tanked on the shields for little to no penalty due to the minimum flux levels not increasing dramatically.

- Okay that wasn't quick in any way shape or form but long story short: Energy based PD weapons are EXTREMELY niche.


On the balance side of things has anyone run a Hyperion vs an Onslaught with almost any weapon loadout? It's hilarious and painful to watch at the same time;
Spoiler
The Hyperion AI is so exploitative of its teleport that the Onslaught literally never gets a word in. In fact MOST ships that don't have 360 shields or EXCEPTIONAL rear firepower will be outlast by a Hyperion that's being pilot by the AI, let alone a player.
I understand that the Hyperion as a whole is extremely expensive and is probably closer to a Destroyer or Cruiser in battlefield effect but it's far more effective than any frigate has a right to be. Prior to it gaining an IMMENSELY powerful teleport it felt... balanced, costly for a frigate but far better than any other and more than capable of taking on multiple threats of the same size or even swarms of fighters with the correct loadout HOWEVER; Post patch the Hyperion will CRUSH the ships it previously countered and outmaneuver and eventually destroy the vast majority of ships in the game and that's all just talking about ONE of these guys.

Two Hyperion ships are available by default at the Tri-tachyon station and more can be obtained ( though not easily for all the reasons mentioned above ) by simply attacking that faction and I can assure you you'll probably never need more than 2, the AI is actually SO good that they'll only teleport towards the target when it can reach an unshielded area which as you can imagine with two of these little bastards means inevitable death for any ship except for the Paragon ( at least as far as I've tested, I'm sure they could take out a Paragon with a bad loadout though due to inevitable strike cycles when the Paragon vents )

Note: The most effective loadout I've found for the Hyperion so far and the loadout I'm basing MOST of my testing around is two Heavy Blasters, two Tactical Lasers ( completely optional ), empty missile slots ( AI isn't great at actually LANDING the missiles and it has no need for the extra firepower except vs ships with.. lots of rear weaponry.. you can see the problem ) along with Hardened shields, Stabilized shields, 10 vents, 5 capacitors and flux resistant conduits. This gives not only huge burst damage vs an unshielded target but also enough flux capacity to survive long enough to teleport OUT again as well as the ability to increase the minimum flux levels of a SHIELDED target leading to an inevitable vent and then a strike cycle.
[close]

tl;dr The Hyperion's teleport cooldown is far too low.

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TaLaR

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Re: Some AI things in .53a and a few balance issues
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2012, 07:47:29 AM »

Burst PD might be somewhat less flux efficient and have less dps than tac laser, sure. But:
1)It has better burst capability (esp with expanded magazines, which are good idea if you combine burst pd with autolasers). Beam pulses also have high (not sustained) dps - it goes through armor easier(not too much on fighters, but there is some)
2)It doesn't waste time on rotation. Tac lasers actually waste a lot against fighters.
3)Having good pd allows you to drop shields more frequently - more flux to fire weapons/less hard flux accumulation threat. +Intercepting missiles with pd costs soft flux, tanking it with shield - hard.

With that said i actually rarely use pd on smaller ships (they can dodge/have easier time flushing hard flux on demand). It is mostly useful for capitals.

On Hyperion:
Actually pretty much anything with speed about 150+ speed will get behind Onslaught even under AI-control. The only question is whether it will fail to manage it's flux & die to backward facing guns or not :) . Ai-Tempest also can solo Standard Onslaught if you add it extended shield (without this mod tempest will die to flak).

Player-piloted Hyperion can kill anything, even Paragon, it just takes time. AI is quite good with it, but does make serious mistake. Best Ai-piloted build in my experience is one with Burst pd - it is the only weapon which can reliably bypass omni shields even in AI's not so skilled hands. + It's flux-cheap which prevents them from dying due to flux mismanagement.

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Mattk50

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Re: Some AI things in .53a and a few balance issues
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2012, 02:08:09 PM »

"1. There's only one kinetic missile and they're fairly uncommon, even when faced with ships that mount them the fact that they're only available in Rack form means that there just isn't a lot of damage available."
not only that, but that energy PD simply cant take out sabots unless you have a rediculous amount of them. once sabots go into their 2nd stage they seem to be invulnerable and the window is then far too short for energy pd to down them.
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Faiter119

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Re: Some AI things in .53a and a few balance issues
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2012, 02:12:15 PM »

There's only one kinetic missile and they're fairly uncommon, even when faced with ships that mount them the fact that they're only available in Rack form means that there just isn't a lot of damage available.

There is also the medium variant.
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Boboid

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Re: Some AI things in .53a and a few balance issues
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2012, 05:15:27 PM »


There is also the medium variant.

My apologies of course there is, I'd completely forgotten about it because it's even less common than rack sabots. ( And frankly not any more dangerous)

not only that, but that energy PD simply cant take out sabots unless you have a rediculous amount of them. once sabots go into their 2nd stage they seem to be invulnerable and the window is then far too short for energy pd to down them.
While I have to admit that sabots ARE hard to shoot down I think that's mostly due to their tiny size which admittedly would be countered by a burst PD laser but that doesn't make them any less niche.

Spoiler
Frankly after having played through about four hours of campaign using primarily PD and fragmentation weapons I'm beginning to question the need for PD on ANY ship that isn't already malnourished in terms of combat effect; The only effective PD weapons I've been able to mount have been the extremely powerful Flak/Dual Flak and a few vulcan cannons on selected ships like the Dominator. The only exception is using the EXTREMELY efficient Light/Dual light/heavy machine guns as overloaders rather than PD weapons but these only get a free pass because they're so good flux/OP efficient which allows you to turn some of the more obscure ships into brawlers.
Energy PD weapons of all kinds just AREN'T efficient in terms of flux->dps OR slot->Dps.. or even OP-> Dps and it gets far FAR worse the larger the mount which as previously stated makes them even LESS useful due to the ships with the mounts to use them not wanting them

Overall I feel like PD weapons of all kinds are suited towards the hypothetical situation where you're being swarmed by missiles and you're not in a position to tank them on the shields but this raises some major issues in practice because most of the time you're being swarmed by missiles you're heavily outnumbered, in a situation where you need as much firepower as possible to KILL the ships firing the missiles.
The other possible situation is a place where shields don't cover the hull, a completely fair use of PD would be covering THESE weak spots but the only missile AI that exploits that is the Salamander ( Ironically the missile that tends to do the MOST damage to me overall ) which means that anyone who faces themselves away from a missile is probably making the wrong move in the first place
- another possibility is wanting to shoot down the missiles to avoid the hard flux generation but, if you're increasing your soft flux generation in a pressure scenario by more than the missile would've increased the hard then you're just as likely to overload
[close]

I accidentally launched into another rant about PD - Long story short, only the most efficient PD weapons are even worth mounting and those most definitely aren't energy based.
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Catra

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Re: Some AI things in .53a and a few balance issues
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2012, 05:54:37 PM »

but the only time the question "which PD should i use?" will ever come up is when you're outfitting a mule or paragon. every other ship you don't really have a say in the matter, and it comes down to if you  want to have some defense against missiles or go "all-in" with offensive weaponry.
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Temjin

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Re: Some AI things in .53a and a few balance issues
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2012, 07:54:33 PM »

Burst PD provides a lot of protection in a small Energy slot. It's pinpoint accurate and one-shots missiles very well, but can get overwhelmed more easily than Flak. The Burst PD is also better at dealing with individual fighters, and does quite a bit of damage to hull.
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Thaago

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Re: Some AI things in .53a and a few balance issues
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2012, 09:29:22 PM »

Unfortunately the burst pd no longer one shots LRM's without a flux bonus - makes protecting the rear of a Hammerhead much more difficult.
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icepick37

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Re: Some AI things in .53a and a few balance issues
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2012, 09:36:10 PM »

Unfortunately the burst pd no longer one shots LRM's without a flux bonus - makes protecting the rear of a Hammerhead much more difficult.
Well on the hammerhead you just take an extended shield. Done deal. Take some tac lasers or ir pulses or summat.  :)
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Reshy

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Re: Some AI things in .53a and a few balance issues
« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2012, 07:11:36 PM »

The main problem I see with the flak is that it can hit multiple missiles and it fires at a constant rate, something that other PD's don't do.


Light Machine Gun VS Duel Light Machine Gun
Spoiler
Ordinance Points:  3 VS 6

Damage per second:  156  VS  208

Flux per second:  19 VS 25

Shots per minute:  375 VS 500

Ammo:  1000 VS 1000

Range:  300 VS 300


That's a huge discrepancy between power and cost.  It costs twice as much for not even a 25% benefit.

There's also another issue, lore related:

"Any weapon that fires over 1200 rounds per minute is called a light machine gun"

The fire rate is 350, even if you count the Ammo Feeder, that's still only 700 which is short.
[close]
... (375-500)/375 = -0.33.  The Dual fires 33% faster than the single.  Or the single fires 25% slower than the Dual.  As to the lore problem... how many flight simulators out there actually simulate each and every bullet fired by e.g. a Hurricane Mk. IIB (12 x 0.303 Browning MGs at a rated 1150 rounds/minute each)?


125% for 200% cost, I don't know about you but I know a bad business decision when I see one.


How many flight simulators have to use real world numbers rather than fictional ones?  All I want in the lore is a bit of consistency.

Interdictor Beam was scrapped.  Why not have more variants of other weapons to fill more niche's?  I like having as much variation as possible on small and large slots.  Currently the most variety in weaponry is in mediums.

So what's wrong about twin reapers being more powerful than the Atropos?  Atropos are guided while reapers are not, it's balanced to me.
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calciumdeposit

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Re: Some AI things in .53a and a few balance issues
« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2012, 08:43:49 AM »

I noticed the AI still crosses beams

don't they know it's bad to cross the beams?
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Faiter119

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Re: Some AI things in .53a and a few balance issues
« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2012, 08:47:20 AM »

I noticed the AI still crosses beams

don't they know it's bad to cross the beams?

Depends if the elements are opposites, in that case they explode. But if the beams are not opposite, they will form a stronger beam.
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BillyRueben

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Re: Some AI things in .53a and a few balance issues
« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2012, 09:41:56 AM »

I noticed the AI still crosses beams

don't they know it's bad to cross the beams?

Depends if the elements are opposites, in that case they explode. But if the beams are not opposite, they will form a stronger beam.
When did this turn in to the Magicka forum?
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Faiter119

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Re: Some AI things in .53a and a few balance issues
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2012, 12:35:24 PM »

I noticed the AI still crosses beams

don't they know it's bad to cross the beams?

Depends if the elements are opposites, in that case they explode. But if the beams are not opposite, they will form a stronger beam.
When did this turn in to the Magicka forum?

Haha someone got the reference. But I really have no idea what the OP meant.
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