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[Reshy]

A few accounts of issues with the AI in the patch, some are also from previous patches.



AI:
Ships with Annihilators that use the Burn Drive will occasionally hit itself with it's own volley.


Ships with Annihilators will see them as enemy projectiles and divert shields to them.


Ships with Flare Systems will deploy them on Annihilators.


Frigates still try to 'turn the most well armored side to the enemy' which frigates only get weaker by as their armor is made of tissue paper and it only serves to prevent hardpoint guns from facing the right way.  Similar problem exists for 'Dropping shields versus kinetic damage' in which frigates will often drop shields versus any kinetics and take a lot of unnecessary hull damage.  This is also sometimes a problem for larger ships too, often when being shot at by explosive missiles such as annihilator pods.  The behavior is quite counter productive for most ships because the ship does that even when shields are up and flux is low.


Ships that are 'Panicking' from low health will often not lower their shields even when well out of range (or firing arc), leading to more frequent overloads.  Most of a problem on OMNI shield ships.


Sometimes ships that are out of range from all but missiles will still keep their shields raised, even if they're at high flux with or without omni shields.  Even if the shield faces the wrong way.


Ships with temporary combat boosting abilities such as the Ammo Feeder will activate them on phase ships even if they are phased or capable of phasing instantly.


Ships retreating from enemy fire near overload will not attempt to strafe while moving back, leading to slow moving long ranged projectiles still hitting.  Not as much of an issue for larger ships, but a problem for smaller more agile ones.


Frigates still attempt to attack targets larger than themselves even at high flux levels instead of using their superior speed to back off.  They also lack proper kiting AI.  This can lead to a frigate charging in to a lot of fire, especially with the hammerhead's ammo feeder and being destroyed instantly.


AI sometimes will have the ship keep aiming towards a recently killed enemy for a few seconds rather than assuming a new target.


Ships sometimes vent at inopportune times, such as when still within range of enemy weapons, or when one enemy has been disabled (Like out of a fighter wing), or when they flame out, even against ships that have a very large firing arc or still facing your ship.  This is mostly a problem with frigates who are the most vulnerable to damage.


Ships sometimes will fire high-flux costing weapons such as the AM blaster, H Blaster, and Plasma Cannon at ships still in phase.


In a 1V1 fight between the Shade and Afflictor, one of the ships overloaded and the other ship backed off while still at low flux.  I thought this was fixed already but apparently not.



Balance

Light Machine Gun VS Duel Light Machine Gun

Spoiler

Ordinance Points:  3 VS 6

Damage per second:  156  VS  208

Flux per second:  19 VS 25

Shots per minute:  375 VS 500

Ammo:  1000 VS 1000

Range:  300 VS 300


That's a huge discrepancy between power and cost.  It costs twice as much for not even a 25% benefit.

There's also another issue, lore related:

"Any weapon that fires over 1200 rounds per minute is called a light machine gun"

The fire rate is 350, even if you count the Ammo Feeder, that's still only 700 which is short.

[close]

Racks VS Pods and Singles:

Spoiler

Very simply one.

Pods are 10 OP for 12 missiles, Singles are one missile for one OP, Racks are 3 missiles for 5 OP.  A huge difference in terms of overall costs.  The most inefficient overall is the racks.

[close]

Atropos:

Spoiler

Another simple one.  A single missile for 2 OP, versus 2 missiles for 6.  A rather large difference in terms of relative OP efficiency.

[close]

Reaper Singles VS Pod VS Duel Pod:

Spoiler

For a single Reaper it costs 2 OP for a single missile, for the Pod it's the same, however for the Duel Pod it's 26 OP for 20, a little over 1 OP per reaper.

[close]

Flak VS Heavy Burst Laser:

Spoiler

Ordinance Points:  8 VS 13

Damage per second:  200 VS 82 (275 Burst)

Range:  500 VS 600

Shots Per Minute:  60 VS 30 (129 Burst)

Flux per second:  50 VS 120

Missile Effectiveness:  

Flak destroys almost all missile variants within it's explosive radius, regardless of number.  

HBL destroys all missiles in a straight line until they reach the damage per shot limit.  This is usually 2-3 missiles per shot, but only if they line up perfectly.  Otherwise it's 1 missile per shot, not counting larger missiles.


It's a bit of a balance problem to be sure, it makes flak much much better than burst lasers are for their price.  So I think that the Burst PD and Heavy Burst Lasers need to be taken down a few OP.

[close]

Now here's a few that I can't quite justify, but I just feel like that they should be done:

Spoiler

Drop High Intensity Laser to 15 OP (from 20).

Increase Guardian PD recharge rate to 60 per minute and decrease cost to 20 OP

Drop the Tachyon Lance (Post Nerf) OP cost to 25 and decrease activation cost of lance to 1250 or 1000 (from 1750).

Drop the Plasma Cannon to 24 OP.

Drop the Swarmer Launcher to 3 OP.

Drop the Storm Needler to 26 OP.

Decrease the Flux Per Shot of the Mjolnir Cannon to 400 (from 600).

Decrease the Flux per shot of the AM Blaster to 1250 or 1000 (from 1500).

Decrease the Flux per shot of the Ion Cannon to 80 (from 120)

Drop the Graviton Beam and the Phase Beam to 8/9 and 10 respectively.

Drop the Gauss Cannon's cost down to 20.

[close]

Suggestions

Spoiler

Add in a medium sized Swarmer PD Launcher.

Add in a 'Regular' Mauler to fill the role of a small sized long range explosive launcher.

Add in a 'Standard' Blaster to act as a middleman between the fast firing IR pulse and the very slow firing AM blaster.

Add in a Reaper Missile Rack like the Atropos has.

Add an Ion Blaster for the medium slot that acts as a medium EMP weapon.

Add in a Small and Large Pilum Launcher.  

Add in a Medium beam PD to give more variety next to the Burst PD.

Add in a Medium 'Heavy Mortar' that fills the role of cheap low range explosive damage.

Add in a Large kinetic missile launcher.

Add in a Large Annihilator missile launcher.

Add in a Large short ranged Explosive/Kinetic weapons that are very cheap or flux efficient.

Add in a Medium and Large Atropos Launcher.

[close]

[Thaago]

I can confirm I've seen all of the behavior in the 'AI' section. I agree that the heavy burst pd laser needs to be adjusted as it is a subpar weapon - I don't think it should be the equal of flak in taking down missiles because of its other capabilities, but I do think it needs to be better. I don't think that any of the other 'balance' points need addressing in every case there are other factors which you didn't list (I'm not saying they are all picture perfect, just that they are all fine at this stage).

Of the suggestions I like these ones:

Add in a medium sized Swarmer PD Launcher.

Add in a 'Regular' Mauler to fill the role of a small sized long range explosive launcher.

...

Add in a Reaper Missile Rack like the Atropos has.

...
Add in a Medium 'Heavy Mortar' that fills the role of cheap low range explosive damage.

...

Although I'm a little up in the air about the Reaper rack - I think the individual OP should go up to 3 so a rack would need to be 7 or 8. Maybe a rack of 2 for 6 if the individuals stay at 2 a piece.

[Anysy]

Ithink the main question about burst PD lasers is - What is their intended target?

A flak almost obviously has a really ideal target; Missiles. It deals tons of aoe damage, that if hits shields or armor, is incredibly mitigated.

Laser PD on the other hand, I dont feel like their intended target is missiles. I feel like burst PD were designed to counter massive amounts of nimble fighters - A swarm of talons, for example. A burst pd can track and engage fighters incredibly well. A single light burst PD will likely nearly destroy a single fighter in under a second. The fighter can neither evade nor outrun a laser beam...

Its definitely true that a medium burst PD wont stop quite as many missiles as a flak would, but Ive lost two hyperions to teleporting too near a guardian-fitted capital ship, both nearly instantly. Thats something a flak cannon will never quite do as quickly

So if you look at burst PD as anti-fighter more than anti-missile, (and energy PD as a whole), it starts to feel more ideal. Sure, if you have enough energy PD you dont need to worry as much about missiles.. But when the enemy starts fielding 50+ OP worth of fighters, I think some medium burst PD will be fairly handy

[TaLaR]

Actually i'd say problem is not usefulness of burst pd in general, but comparison of light and medium versions.

OP: 8 vs 13
Charges: 2(3) vs 3(4) - with extended mags in brackets, must-have mod for ships seriously relying on burst pd.
Sustained flux /second: 70 vs 120
Sustained dps: 55 vs 82
Per shot damage: 110 vs 165

Basically it's never a good idea to use single heavy version instead of 2 light ones - they provide better pd, and better anti ship damage, if needed. Medium slots also has many other applications (at least universally useful grav beams), for light slots you pretty much don't have alternatives on large high techs, unless you want to tank most missiles on shield (Since other pd lasers are not quite as good at intercepting missiles...This might be acceptable for player-controlled ship, but AI seems to be not so good at it - try pd-less Paragon, if you don't believe).

[Alex]

Thanks for the feedback.

If I can make a request - for AI behaviors, it's very helpful if you point to a specific matchup where said behavior happens at least somewhat reliably.

Some specific comments/responses:

Ships with Annihilators will see them as enemy projectiles and divert shields to them.

Only happens if these Annihilators are flamed out and can hit the ship - so at first glance, not a bug. Steps to reproduce?

Ships with Flare Systems will deploy them on Annihilators.

Not a bug. Flare impacts can destroy missiles.

Frigates still try to 'turn the most well armored side to the enemy' which frigates only get weaker by as their armor is made of tissue paper and it only serves to prevent hardpoint guns from facing the right way.  Similar problem exists for 'Dropping shields versus kinetic damage' in which frigates will often drop shields versus any kinetics and take a lot of unnecessary hull damage.  This is also sometimes a problem for larger ships too, often when being shot at by explosive missiles such as annihilator pods.  The behavior is quite counter productive for most ships because the ship does that even when shields are up and flux is low.

This is the intended behavior - tt's very useful in a number of cases (especially vs Swarmers, kinetic weapons, etc). I'd rather have it do this more frequently than necessary than risk unnecessary deaths.

Ships retreating from enemy fire near overload will not attempt to strafe while moving back, leading to slow moving long ranged projectiles still hitting.  Not as much of an issue for larger ships, but a problem for smaller more agile ones.

Matchup? Looking at the game and the code, I don't how it would happen. (If it's not a 1-1, there may be other threats being considered...)




About weapon balance in general:
The OP costs are not linear to weapon performance. An improvement in the same-size slot generally costs more OP than it would if it were linear - that's an intentional design choice. This ensures that lower-performing weapons still constitute a viable choice. At this point, this also penalizes some higher-end weapons a bit much. I'm not saying the balance is perfect, either - but it's not something I want to address until OP-enhancing skills are in, because they will alter the balance greatly.

You're never making the choice of "do I put two LMGs into this slot, or one Dual LMG?". It makes sense to have the better one be disproportionately more expensive, because you *can't* get that boost by cramming more of the same lower-tier weapon onto the ship. You don't have unlimited slots.

Larger weapons are generally more OP-efficient than smaller ones, or have other perks - increased range, accuracy, EMP damage, AoE, higher burst damage, etc. That's also an intentional design choice.



As far as the Heavy Burst Laser:
(Similar reasoning against comparing 2x small vs 1x medium applies - but the opportunity cost for installing a Heavy Burst Laser is definitely higher - the Guardian faces a similar issue. Comparisons with Flak don't make much sense - it's (almost) never one or the other, and high-tech ships have other means of dealing with missiles.)

In my experience it lets you do things a regular burst laser doesn't. Its longer range lets you pick off MIRVs and Sabots before they split. You can pick off fighters more effectively. It can punch through armor very well due to its high burst damage. I've tried a few PD-heavy builds on high tech ships and from what I saw, the Heavy Burst Laser can really shine.

For example: an Apogee with 2x Burst, 2x Heavy Burst, 2x LRPD in hardpoints, 1x Autopulse. Throw in an ITU, Expanded Magazines, Advanced Optics, and Turret Gyros and you've got a ship that melts fighters in a frightening radius - to a point where they usually can't escape. It's got reasonable close-range capability due to the Autopulse, too - with the nice synergy w/ Expanded Magazines. You can do something similar with the Paragon, too - I suggest trying it in Forlorn Hope for maximum fireworks. A dedicated PD build is actually more effective than anything I've tried, in that mission.

Not to say it won't be tweaked, but I think the larger issue for the Heavy Burst Laser is there are very few ships to put it on where it's not taking up the biggest slots. There'll probably be a few more choices here as the game progresses.

[icepick37]

Whoo more content.    I really want to see a ship called the raven/crow so I can run an unkindness/murder of them. (Like my wolf pack. 

[Anysy]

It sounds to me that the medium burst laser is about 50% stronger than the light burst laser.

I dunno really what else there is to say, as it seems pretty obvious that if you have a medium slot you want to devote to PD, the medium burst laser is probably the best option. But if you already have enough light slots dedicated to PD, theres no need..

[TaLaR]

About Heavy burst laser.

Didn't to try on Apogee due generally feeling meh about this weapon. But yes, it seems a natural fit: 2 light slots just are not enough, and considering how far behind medium ones are placed, they are not really that useful offensively anyway.

On Paragon in Forlorn Hope it's actually not that impressive - sure it kills unshielded targets almost instantly, but shielded ones give it hard time. Similar design with BurstPd/Gravitons/Autopulse in all applicable slots performs best for me. + OP difference between gravitons and heavy burst is quite crucial here.

[icepick37]

I really like the heavy burst. It does melt through fighters and armor, but it's fairly limp in extended engagements.  But it's fairly easy to back off and let it recharge.

Also I don't think he meant throw burst and heavy burst in EVERY slot. 

[Alex]

Also I don't think he meant throw burst and heavy burst in EVERY slot. 

I did, actually

On Paragon in Forlorn Hope it's actually not that impressive - sure it kills unshielded targets almost instantly, but shielded ones give it hard time. Similar design with BurstPd/Gravitons/Autopulse in all applicable slots performs best for me. + OP difference between gravitons and heavy burst is quite crucial here.

Hmm, you're right. Last time I tried it was a while ago - since then, the AI doesn't bring out nearly as many bombers in the first wave, reducing the need for PD in that mission. Was wondering why that had gotten significantly easier... not having to worry about 2-3 wings of Piranhas coming in is kind of a big deal. I've got to take a look at that.

[TaLaR]

Was wondering why that had gotten significantly easier...

Also fortress shields - even if AI managed to align perfect bomb run, Paragon is able to pretty much ignore such predictable burst damage due to it's ability.

[icepick37]

Also I don't think he meant throw burst and heavy burst in EVERY slot.  

I did, actually

Eeeeeeeew. No way that works.    I've never had good luck with pure burst builds. They work much better with some beams of some kind supporting them.

[Alex]

Also fortress shields - even if AI managed to align perfect bomb run, Paragon is able to pretty much ignore such predictable burst damage due to it's ability.

Oh yeah, there's that too

Eeeeeeeew. No way that works.    I've never had good luck with pure burst builds. They work much better with some beams of some kind supporting them.

In that mission, it actually worked pretty well. Still works, but yeah, in that mission, less bombers + fortress shield make a dedicated PD Paragon build a solution looking for a problem.

[Darloth]

Too add another voice to the pile, I think the Heavy Burst PD could do with a slight increase in either charges, recharge speed, or both.  It's a fairly large investment and while it's quite good at PD and has nice range... it just doesn't quite have the oomph that I'm expecting from a medium slot.  I don't have any justification for this mind you, it's just an instinctual opinion.

[Reshy]

Thanks for the feedback.

If I can make a request - for AI behaviors, it's very helpful if you point to a specific matchup where said behavior happens at least somewhat reliably.

Some specific comments/responses:

Ships with Annihilators will see them as enemy projectiles and divert shields to them.

Only happens if these Annihilators are flamed out and can hit the ship - so at first glance, not a bug. Steps to reproduce?

Here:

Spoiler

It might not be the annihilators, but I can't figure out what else would explain this odd shield behavior.

[close]

Ships with Flare Systems will deploy them on Annihilators.

Not a bug. Flare impacts can destroy missiles.


Should probably be changed, a wave of annihilators have higher priority than a harpoon or pilum.

Frigates still try to 'turn the most well armored side to the enemy' which frigates only get weaker by as their armor is made of tissue paper and it only serves to prevent hardpoint guns from facing the right way.  Similar problem exists for 'Dropping shields versus kinetic damage' in which frigates will often drop shields versus any kinetics and take a lot of unnecessary hull damage.  This is also sometimes a problem for larger ships too, often when being shot at by explosive missiles such as annihilator pods.  The behavior is quite counter productive for most ships because the ship does that even when shields are up and flux is low.

This is the intended behavior - tt's very useful in a number of cases (especially vs Swarmers, kinetic weapons, etc). I'd rather have it do this more frequently than necessary than risk unnecessary deaths.


It causes frigates to wobble like crazy and makes slower projectile weapons useless.  The wolf has this problem if given a pulse laser/Heavy Blaster.

Ships retreating from enemy fire near overload will not attempt to strafe while moving back, leading to slow moving long ranged projectiles still hitting.  Not as much of an issue for larger ships, but a problem for smaller more agile ones.

Matchup? Looking at the game and the code, I don't how it would happen. (If it's not a 1-1, there may be other threats being considered...)


It was a modified lasher versus the enforcer with Thumpers.


About weapon balance in general:
The OP costs are not linear to weapon performance. An improvement in the same-size slot generally costs more OP than it would if it were linear - that's an intentional design choice. This ensures that lower-performing weapons still constitute a viable choice. At this point, this also penalizes some higher-end weapons a bit much. I'm not saying the balance is perfect, either - but it's not something I want to address until OP-enhancing skills are in, because they will alter the balance greatly.

You're never making the choice of "do I put two LMGs into this slot, or one Dual LMG?". It makes sense to have the better one be disproportionately more expensive, because you *can't* get that boost by cramming more of the same lower-tier weapon onto the ship. You don't have unlimited slots.

Larger weapons are generally more OP-efficient than smaller ones, or have other perks - increased range, accuracy, EMP damage, AoE, higher burst damage, etc. That's also an intentional design choice.


That's fine, I don't expect it to be exactly linear, but especially in the case of the duel LMG I find that I take them off and substitute the OP from them into hull mods.  Which lead to this hilariously effective lasher variant using only the cheapest OP weaponry.

Spoiler

[close]

As far as the Heavy Burst Laser:
(Similar reasoning against comparing 2x small vs 1x medium applies - but the opportunity cost for installing a Heavy Burst Laser is definitely higher - the Guardian faces a similar issue. Comparisons with Flak don't make much sense - it's (almost) never one or the other, and high-tech ships have other means of dealing with missiles.)

In my experience it lets you do things a regular burst laser doesn't. Its longer range lets you pick off MIRVs and Sabots before they split. You can pick off fighters more effectively. It can punch through armor very well due to its high burst damage. I've tried a few PD-heavy builds on high tech ships and from what I saw, the Heavy Burst Laser can really shine.

For example: an Apogee with 2x Burst, 2x Heavy Burst, 2x LRPD in hardpoints, 1x Autopulse. Throw in an ITU, Expanded Magazines, Advanced Optics, and Turret Gyros and you've got a ship that melts fighters in a frightening radius - to a point where they usually can't escape. It's got reasonable close-range capability due to the Autopulse, too - with the nice synergy w/ Expanded Magazines. You can do something similar with the Paragon, too - I suggest trying it in Forlorn Hope for maximum fireworks. A dedicated PD build is actually more effective than anything I've tried, in that mission.

Not to say it won't be tweaked, but I think the larger issue for the Heavy Burst Laser is there are very few ships to put it on where it's not taking up the biggest slots. There'll probably be a few more choices here as the game progresses.

I pioneered that design rather well.


My problem however is that they're almost better for dealing with frigates than missiles, which is odd for a PD.  It to me feels like a more damaging tactical laser that's secondary purpose is to act as PD.  Sure it's effective at what it does, but the costs seem a bit high for what it does on ships that can't spam it like the paragon.  The main problem I see is in the recharge rate, it takes several PD to compensate for the recharge time.  A single is nearly useless, while a lot are really useful is my general experience.  Changing the OP is one solution, but I believe what really needs to be done is to increase the recharge rate.  The turret fires it's initial bursts very quickly, but in extended situations their mediocrity shine through.




-----------


For the other people on the thread, what about the list do you guys actually like or want to see implemented?