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[keptin]

This suggestion might be beating a dead horse at this point, but here goes...

You, as the fleet commander, gain experience after each battle won (or for trading, exploration, mining, etc.).  This then can be used to build up a skill tree with various "branches".  For example, in the Command branch, you train skills to expand your maximum number of ships and ship-classes.  In Engineering, you unlock armor, hull and weapon modifications.  And in Science, you gain experience and credit multipliers, warp technologies (once multi-systems comes about), and exploration skills.

Instead of writing a long winded post, take a look at this thing I made:

HiRes: http://i.imgur.com/OYYk9.jpg

[hadesian]

Maybe.

We really, really have to wait for Alex to give us an idea on the basics of how character and officers work.

My guess is not a skill tree but something else, probably based far more on what crew you have.

[keptin]

It'd be cool if he could chime in and share his thoughts on the crew stuff.  One tricky bit about skill trees is that you have to control your experience payout and skill cost based on how long a game should take.  For RTS games, that's hours, for MMORPGs, that's months.  Ideally, total skill point or experience payout is such that you can't get all the skills in the tree and have to make tough choices about how you want to customize.  This provides a bit more replay value as players try different combinations of skills.

[hadesian]

One tricky bit about skill trees is that you have to control your experience payout and skill cost based on how long a game should take. 

That's probably it, actually. I think what Alex is trying to go for is a tackle it how you will experience where skill trees if they even exist aren't mindless 'go get this then this for what you want' but more balanced game changers that you build strategies around.
Most likely we'll see something along the lines of not even levelling up but just getting better and the game subtly making stuff work better for you, with outright improvements being handled by officer skills and captain backgrounds and such.

[DJ Die]

Ideally, total skill point or experience payout is such that you can't get all the skills in the tree and have to make tough choices about how you want to customize.  This provides a bit more replay value as players try different combinations of skills.

actually id like to get all the skills if i choose to invest enough time in the game, battles, missions etc.

[Alex]

Interesting - I like the way you drew it up, too.

I find myself questioning the whole notion of skill trees. They sure seem to remove a lot of choice from the player, don't they? If you know you need skill X, well, everything on the path to X is no longer a choice - you know you have to get it. (If you have multiple paths, you do get a bit of choice back - but is no longer a tree, strictly speaking ). It's also harder to design in a flexible way - say you want to add a new skill later on. Finding a good spot on the tree seems like it'd be challenging - you might have to move things around much more than you wanted to, just to make things fit nicely. Not to say you couldn't do a good job of it, but it does seem - to me - to be fraught with potential issues.

That's not really an answer to what skills are going to be like, of course. I've got some ideas about that, which are becoming fairly concrete - but not yet at a point where I feel comfortable talking about them - sorry!

[Upgradecap]

(If you have multiple paths, you do get a bit of choice back - but is no longer a tree, strictly speaking ).

Wow, first time i see alex use the smiley :O

[DJ Die]

i have a bit different questing for you Alex:
how are the skills going to improve? by using them? or by some kind of XP or skill points?
atm we have crew experience for every battle is it going to be something like that?

[K-64]

I would like to see a system similar to Mount & Blade in regards to skills, where the weapon-related skills go up as you use them, but also you can improve them on level ups/spending experience, depending on if StarFarer will use a level system, like traditional RPGs or experience based skill-ups like VtM does (and possibly others, VtM is the only example in my mind that does that).

[keptin]

They sure seem to remove a lot of choice from the player...It's also harder to design in a flexible way

All valid points, I look forward to seeing how the skill system works.  Skill trees are a popular and timeless mechanic, but I wonder if they'll begin to take on a new shape or be replaced entirely in future games.

[StahnAileron]

Personally, I was a fan of Fallout's (1 & 2 mainly) Perks system. Every 3 (or 4) char levels, you get to choose from a(n all-inclusive) list of Perks your character is eligible for. Skill Points were distributed however you wanted. Fallout 2 let you max-out your char (almost) completely at endgame if you wanted as well (you couldn't max out base char stats.) This was just a reward for finsihing the game though. Still, at level 99, you had 33 Perks and maxed (300%? Or was it still 200% in FO2?) skills.

I found Fallout's skill system to be both fairly straight forward and flexible in character building. I liked it a bit more than usage-based systems, like The Elder Scrolls' various systems. Those reward you for constantly using a skill, but gameplay-wise, they aren't very balance is opportunities to use the skills you wanted to raise at times. (Like RUNNING vs SNEAK vs SWIMMING). I found the usage-based skill system to be rewarding in a sense, but not very flexible in the mid to late games (early game doesn't matter too much since all your skills are essentially at crappy levels.) Once you peak out certain skills by mid game, you're kinda locked into a particular play style unless you grind to build up the other skills. (Part of the reason I despise MMORPG: they lock you into specialties and by my very nature, I like being a jack-of-all-trades to some degree with slightly higher competency in a few things. I might not be the best or an expert, but I can still hold my own in any situation.)

I also never really liked skill-tree systems eithers. They give you "choice", but once you make that "choice", you tend to be stuck on that path with little or no recourse to backtrack if need be. I understand it's a valid gameplay mechanic (consequence of action/choices), but I never really enjoyed having to play a game start-finish just to TRY OUT a particular char build to see if I like it out not. (Especially games with class-based skill systems for the player character.)

A lot of Alex's choices for gameplay mechanics seem to be rooted in simplification and abstraction of complex mechanics (KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid). I think something akin to Fallout's Perk system would fit well with Satrfarer. Especially since it seems like the "skills" in SF all look to be "always on" passive bonuses (this was the case of the Perks in FO, if I recall). Active skills seem to be wholly based on the ships themselves (i.e. ship systems.)

[Alrenous]

I find myself questioning the whole notion of skill trees. They sure seem to remove a lot of choice from the player, don't they?

There's a correct way to do trees, and that's upgrades of an existing skill.

Say you have a skill that reduces OP for weapons. It would be the root of a tree that had branches such as; reduces OP for specifically energy weapons, reduces OP for weapon-specific mods like magazines, or simply reduces OP some more.

And now I've said it out loud, I realize it works better for active skills. For example, as you put levels into the skeleton in D2, it changes its graphics. It could have been a tree where each tier had a different graphic. Or, as you put levels into Teeth, you shoot more teeth, that could have been branches too.

[hadesian]

One of the biggest limitations IMO with trees is making what you get unique, rather than '10% boost' 'minus 2 op'

[theSONY]

 yeah thats a great idea with the "tree" or Fallout perks, don't want to see any "kiss" stuff cuz at the full lvl. player will be unstopable & thats just bit nubish

[Alex]

I find myself questioning the whole notion of skill trees. They sure seem to remove a lot of choice from the player, don't they?

There's a correct way to do trees, and that's upgrades of an existing skill.

That sounds like talent trees in WoW.

I think it's informative that talent trees in WoW were eventually replaced with a different, perk-like mechanic altogether. And, while D2 has trees, D3 doesn't. Say what you want about the D3 business model (and I'll probably agree), but the skill system design is good.

I'm a huge fan of D2... but I'm not sure what the tree-ness of the skill structure brought to the table there. All it meant is a varying (but always small) amount of points you spend on pre-requisites after making your choice of which skills to max. The synergies were the meat of a build, not the tree hierarchy - which basically amounted to a mandatory waste of a few skill points.

They sure seem to remove a lot of choice from the player...It's also harder to design in a flexible way

All valid points, I look forward to seeing how the skill system works.  Skill trees are a popular and timeless mechanic, but I wonder if they'll begin to take on a new shape or be replaced entirely in future games.

I think we already are - with WoW and D3 being the main examples that come to mind.