Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic: High Energy Focus  (Read 11126 times)

Wyvern

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3802
    • View Profile
High Energy Focus
« on: July 09, 2012, 11:26:56 AM »

Current design for this system:
  • High Energy Focus - boosts energy weapon damage by 50%, increases damage taken by 50%, can't use shields
    • Sunder, Aurora, Odyssey

The problem I have with this is that it strongly encourages Tachyon Lance use - which, imo, really doesn't need to be a stronger tactic than it already is - while discouraging short-range brawling with plasma cannons or heavy blasters or the like.

My suggestion for the High Energy Focus:
Edit: Thanks to various bits of feedback and brainstorming, I've come up with a notion I like much better:
HEF allows a ship to make better use of high flux levels:
  • Flux damage bonus scales to 70% at max flux instead of 50%
  • Flux also provides a range bonus to energy weapons, scaling to +800 at max flux; this bonus range stacks with (but is not multiplied by) any range-increasing hull mods.
  • "Activating" the HEF generates hard flux on your ship, as per the current games' increase flux keybind

Effects:
  • Keeps the current theme of sacrificing defense for offense - if you're boosting your flux levels, that's that much less capacity you've got for taking hits.
  • Gives a strong incentive to actually use the increase-your-own-flux option; extra range means you can start shooting at the enemy that much sooner.
  • Provides some benefit (a bit of bonus damage) to all usages (*cough*tachyonsniper*cough*), but strongly favors short-ranged brawler armaments - since they're the things that get the most benefit from a flat numerical range increase.

My original idea (kept here to allow context for subsequent replies):
Quote
Double the damage bonus provided by high flux, and can be used to increase your flux levels (i.e. hitting 'f' functions the way it does in current game).

This has a similar feel of gaining damage at the cost of defense - since all of the ships with HEF are very dependent on their shields - but isn't instantly crippling to use in close combat.  Instead, it rewards risky behavior - running at as high a flux level as you can without overloading.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 08:59:09 AM by Wyvern »
Logged
Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

PCCL

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2016
  • still gunnyfreak
    • View Profile
Re: High Energy Focus
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2012, 01:03:32 PM »

+1 to you, sir
Logged
mmm.... tartiflette

Vandala

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1841
  • We need ponies, ponies in spaceships!
    • View Profile
Re: High Energy Focus
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2012, 01:11:19 PM »

Now that's a terrible idea, it makes the point you wanted to address even worse!

With what you suggest you can just sit back, raise your flux and still use the Tachyon Lance but this time with an added bonus in damage of up to 100%.

Thaago

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 7206
  • Harpoon Affectionado
    • View Profile
Re: High Energy Focus
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2012, 01:13:13 PM »

My only issue: whats to stop folks from raising flux while using the tachyon lance? I would remove the part of using it to actively raise flux levels.

[Edit] Ninja'd!

I like the idea, but I also like how 'high risk, high reward' the original system promises to be (except for the tachyon lance). Maybe a bit much with the +50% incoming damage on top of no shields, but only time will tell...

Actually I just had a thought: what about switching the fortress shield and high energy focus between the paragon and the odyssey? The odyssey is fast enough that it could really benefit from some time to run away, while the paragon has the armor to actually take some hits while dishing out ludicrous damage.
Logged

Upgradecap

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 5422
  • CEO of the TimCORP
    • View Profile
Re: High Energy Focus
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2012, 01:13:45 PM »

Well, anything your propose as a change to HEF will eventually encourage Tachyon Lance use. Your proposal only makes them dish out more damage. Anything that increases the damage done by energy weapons will eventually increase the Tachyon Lances OPness more.
Logged

PCCL

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2016
  • still gunnyfreak
    • View Profile
Re: High Energy Focus
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2012, 01:16:08 PM »

ya...

general combat wise this makes it a bit more viable than no shield and 50+ damage, thats why I +'ed 1

Tach Lances are gonna be OP no matter what, I think. What we really need is to just outright nerf it
Logged
mmm.... tartiflette

Wyvern

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3802
    • View Profile
Re: High Energy Focus
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2012, 01:21:55 PM »

Now that's a terrible idea, it makes the point you wanted to address even worse!

With what you suggest you can just sit back, raise your flux and still use the Tachyon Lance but this time with an added bonus in damage of up to 100%.

Actually, the overall damage bonus is equal or lower - total of 2x base instead of 2.25x base (+50% from focus +50% from flux = 1.5x * 1.5x = 2.25x - or it's the same total if the original HEF was additive; I don't actually know) - and if you push all the way to just shy of max flux, you risk overloading the instant anything actually manages to get near you.  Which is a bit more dangerous than "Oh, there are strike frigates incoming, I'll just shut off the HEF and put up shields".

Yes, it's still very effective to use in combo with the Lance - but it's less so than the previous version, and it's not totally useless at point blank range (against anything that can shoot back).

That said, if you have some better idea, please let us know!
« Last Edit: July 09, 2012, 01:24:05 PM by Wyvern »
Logged
Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

Vandala

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1841
  • We need ponies, ponies in spaceships!
    • View Profile
Re: High Energy Focus
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2012, 01:42:17 PM »

As it is now it will probably come with charges to limit its use, that should be enough to limit the use of the system for Tachyon Lances. We'll have to wait and see.

Faiter119

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1402
    • View Profile
Re: High Energy Focus
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2012, 02:15:25 PM »

When Phase ships come along i hope Alex codes them to go and assassinate Lance snipers :) THAT would be a good way of dealing with it.
Logged

Thaago

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 7206
  • Harpoon Affectionado
    • View Profile
Re: High Energy Focus
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2012, 02:38:11 PM »

As it is now it will probably come with charges to limit its use, that should be enough to limit the use of the system for Tachyon Lances. We'll have to wait and see.

I would actually be kinda upset if this system came with limited use. The design and balance of energy weapons takes into account that those weapons have infinite ammo - having an energy weapon system suddenly break that would really screw things up, at least imo.
Logged

Temjin

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 461
    • View Profile
Re: High Energy Focus
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2012, 04:42:18 PM »

As it is now it will probably come with charges to limit its use, that should be enough to limit the use of the system for Tachyon Lances. We'll have to wait and see.

I would actually be kinda upset if this system came with limited use. The design and balance of energy weapons takes into account that those weapons have infinite ammo - having an energy weapon system suddenly break that would really screw things up, at least imo.

Except for "specialty cases" like the Antimatter Blaster. I could see the TL having charges, although even if it had 10-15 of them it would be more than enough to render most frigates and fighters useless.
Logged

Wyvern

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3802
    • View Profile
Re: High Energy Focus
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2012, 04:55:45 PM »

Hm.  That's actually an interesting notion - giving the Tachyon Lance an ammo count could really tone down its game-changer status.  I might even go with regenerating charges, like the rest of the burst beam weaponry - but the regeneration rate would need to be very low.
Logged
Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

naufrago

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 511
    • View Profile
Re: High Energy Focus
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2012, 10:19:52 PM »

The Tachyon Lance isn't the main issue; specifically, it's that the Tachyon Lance has a huge range, and range is the most powerful stat a weapon can have since it allows a ship to deal damage without receiving damage. However, beyond some critical point, the marginal benefit of additional range is negligible. It's useful, but not the game changer that not receiving return-fire is.

That's all to preface this suggestion- I think HEF should provide a 50-100% increase to range instead of damage. That would make it MUCH more useful for weapons like the plasma cannon and less so for the Tachyon Lance. I'd even be willing to guess that the Tachyon Lance's range could be reduced to 3000 without it affecting how good it is. A more reasonable nerf would be to increase its fire rate by, say, 10-30%. It's the ridiculously long range combined with its powerful alpha strike that make it such a devastating weapon.


EDIT: I feel I should provide an explanation of alpha strike and the theory behind it for those who aren't familiar with EVE, which I borrowed the term from.

So, let's say you have a ship with 100hp, and let's say I have a choice of 2 weapons I can use to shoot at your ship, but they both deal 10 dps. One option is an artillery cannon that shoots once every 10 secs, the other is a pulse laser that fires once every second.

Pulse Laser:
The pulse laser deals 10 damage per shot, since it has 10 dps and shoots once per second. After 10 shots, you will die. Assuming my first shot is fired at 0 seconds, my last shot will fire at 9 seconds. You will die in 9 seconds if I use a Pulse Laser.

Artillery cannon:
The artillery deals 100 damage per shot, since it has 10 dps and shoots once every 10 seconds. After just one shot, you will die. I kill you 9 seconds faster with artillery than I would if I had used a Pulse Laser.

Now, let's say you have 110hp and you have a buddy with you that has 10hp. In this situation, your ship will die at the 10 second mark regardless of which weapon I choose, but the pulse laser has the advantage since it will then destroy your buddy at 11secs. The artillery has to wait a full 9 extra seconds to kill your buddy, which could be all he needs to get away or kill me.

The dps is the same, but more of the damage is front-loaded by the weapon that fires more slowly. That front-loaded damage is called the alpha strike. It can be very useful, but situational.


Now back to Starfarer, the game mechanics heavily favor weapons with a high alpha strike, mainly due to the way armor works; more of the damage is applied to the armor rather than absorbed by it when the per-shot damage is higher. When combined with the previously mentioned benefits of alpha strike and the extreme range which allows you to shoot without fear of receiving damage yourself, you have yourself an extremely powerful weapon.

That in itself wouldn't be a problem, but there's another problem that exacerbates the situation. With one exception, the only ships that can mount the Tachyon Lance have incredibly strong tanks. There's a reason that fleet ships in EVE that have extreme range are glass cannons- they sacrifice the ability to absorb and deal damage to outrange their opponent. One of the ways for you to counter them is to get close enough to shoot back, since you'll typically have higher dps and be able to take more damage (I'm simplifying things, but that's the gist). In Starfarer, the ships that can mount a Tachyon Lance sacrifice comparitively little for it.

The stock hulls that can mount a Tachyon Lance are already very strong defensively, and mounting a Tachyon Lance is both an offensive AND defensive choice. There simply is no better option for the OP. Perhaps in the final game, the balancing factor will be the scarcity of the weapon. Even still, increasing the firing rate and reducing the range to 3000 are fully justified, imho.

EDIT 2: I got a bit side-tracked there. Oops.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 02:58:11 PM by naufrago »
Logged

BillyRueben

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1406
    • View Profile
Re: High Energy Focus
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2012, 05:45:41 AM »

That's all to preface this suggestion- I think HEF should provide a 50-100% increase to range instead of damage.
So, you want to turn every other energy weapon in to a tachyon lance? A HIL with the ITU hull mod and your proposed HEF would have the same range as the base tachyon lance would it not?
Logged

Temjin

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 461
    • View Profile
Re: High Energy Focus
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2012, 06:25:15 AM »

That's all to preface this suggestion- I think HEF should provide a 50-100% increase to range instead of damage.
So, you want to turn every other energy weapon in to a tachyon lance? A HIL with the ITU hull mod and your proposed HEF would have the same range as the base tachyon lance would it not?

However, its lower burst damage would at least give frigates a chance to raise shields against it.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2