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[Reshy]

The Wolf Frigate seems unable to correctly use projectile based hardpoints in the medium slot.  Using the Assault setup it can almost never hit an opposing lasher with the blaster, and rarely even takes aim at lashers.  I don't know what's causing this but it's making problems for me using the wolf frigates.

[Alex]

What level crew are you using? That matters quite a bit. Taking a look now, regular crew seems to hit about one in every 2-4 shots, depending on whether the Lasher variant has augmented engines or not. The Heavy Blaster isn't a great weapon for the Wolf - the flux requirements are rather too high (and the efficiency too low). In any case, not a bug - also, it doesn't generalize to all projectile-style weapons - for example, it'll do much better with a pulse laser, because the effect of a few misses isn't so high, and it has more time to get a good bead on the target. It's just a case of the Heavy Blaster not being an optimal weapon choice here, especially in the hands of inexperienced crew.

[Reshy]

What level crew are you using? That matters quite a bit. Taking a look now, regular crew seems to hit about one in every 2-4 shots, depending on whether the Lasher variant has augmented engines or not. The Heavy Blaster isn't a great weapon for the Wolf - the flux requirements are rather too high (and the efficiency too low). In any case, not a bug - also, it doesn't generalize to all projectile-style weapons - for example, it'll do much better with a pulse laser, because the effect of a few misses isn't so high, and it has more time to get a good bead on the target. It's just a case of the Heavy Blaster not being an optimal weapon choice here, especially in the hands of inexperienced crew.

Other ships have the same problem as well.  The Eagle when faced with an Onslaught will turn it's nose away and take a ton of damage that could have been avoided.

[Alex]

Eh? The situation you outlined in the OP had to do with missing with a hardpoint weapon, not with taking damage.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get across. Yeah, the AI doesn't do things perfectly. Yeah, it can be improved (and has been with every release). I certainly don't mind hearing about any issues it has, but I'm not sure the bug reports forum is the place for it - maybe that's why I'm having trouble here. Due to the nature of where this is posted, I'm looking for an actual bug in what you're describing and not seeing one.

[Reshy]

Eh? The situation you outlined in the OP had to do with missing with a hardpoint weapon, not with taking damage.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get across. Yeah, the AI doesn't do things perfectly. Yeah, it can be improved (and has been with every release). I certainly don't mind hearing about any issues it has, but I'm not sure the bug reports forum is the place for it - maybe that's why I'm having trouble here. Due to the nature of where this is posted, I'm looking for an actual bug in what you're describing and not seeing one.

What I'm saying is that ships with frontal hardpoints tend to turn away from enemies acting like they're a turret.  They also don't use strafe, instead they only go forwards or backwards and twist around awkwardly when trying to chance direction.  Try the Eagle Assault Cruiser and the Standard Onslaught in the simulator, you'll see what I mean a bit better.  I believe the frigate problem is the fact that it's turn acceleration causes it to sway too much when trying to change direction.


It might also be worth looking into to try and change the way frigates fight larger ships, right now they tend to charge at high flux and overload instantly.

[Vandala]

What I'm saying is that ships with frontal hardpoints tend to turn away from enemies acting like they're a turret.  They also don't use strafe, instead they only go forwards or backwards and twist around awkwardly when trying to chance direction.  Try the Eagle Assault Cruiser and the Standard Onslaught in the simulator, you'll see what I mean a bit better.  I believe the frigate problem is the fact that it's turn acceleration causes it to sway too much when trying to change direction.

I've never seen a problem with turn acceleration, the AI seems to have absolute perfect control in this regard. Maybe its the hardpoint that's at fault, does the AI know of the slower turning speed of hardpoints?

[Reshy]

What I'm saying is that ships with frontal hardpoints tend to turn away from enemies acting like they're a turret.  They also don't use strafe, instead they only go forwards or backwards and twist around awkwardly when trying to chance direction.  Try the Eagle Assault Cruiser and the Standard Onslaught in the simulator, you'll see what I mean a bit better.  I believe the frigate problem is the fact that it's turn acceleration causes it to sway too much when trying to change direction.

I've never seen a problem with turn acceleration, the AI seems to have absolute perfect control in this regard. Maybe its the hardpoint that's at fault, does the AI know of the slower turning speed of hardpoints?

Not the turn speed of the hardpoints, but the turn speed of the nose that it's attached to.  Play a bit more frigate on frigate in the simulator and you should see what I mean.

[Alex]

What you're seeing is the AI turning the ship to get a better distribution of damage on the armor. It's might bit too proactive about it (although it should avoid this if it's got a lot of flux - so, by the time it does it, chance are it's not missing out on much firing time), but that's what it is.

It does indeed have near-perfect control of turn rate and acceleration - it's not going to fishtail if that's at all possible given the ship's stats. Same way it doesn't fishtail when you control the ship using the "turn to mouse" mode.

[Reshy]

What you're seeing is the AI turning the ship to get a better distribution of damage on the armor. It's might bit too proactive about it (although it should avoid this if it's got a lot of flux - so, by the time it does it, chance are it's not missing out on much firing time), but that's what it is.

It does indeed have near-perfect control of turn rate and acceleration - it's not going to fishtail if that's at all possible given the ship's stats. Same way it doesn't fishtail when you control the ship using the "turn to mouse" mode.

Well if that's the case it shouldn't occur on frigates because regardless of the amount of armor they simply don't have enough armor 'cells' to distribute the damage in any significant way.


Turn to mouse mode?

[Thaago]

What you're seeing is the AI turning the ship to get a better distribution of damage on the armor. It's might bit too proactive about it (although it should avoid this if it's got a lot of flux - so, by the time it does it, chance are it's not missing out on much firing time), but that's what it is.

It does indeed have near-perfect control of turn rate and acceleration - it's not going to fishtail if that's at all possible given the ship's stats. Same way it doesn't fishtail when you control the ship using the "turn to mouse" mode.

Well if that's the case it shouldn't occur on frigates because regardless of the amount of armor they simply don't have enough armor 'cells' to distribute the damage in any significant way.


Turn to mouse mode?

When you hold shift and turn you strafe and face towards wherever the mouse is.
Frigates certainly have armor on both side of them. Its not all that much, but its definitely there.

[Vandala]

Well if that's the case it shouldn't occur on frigates because regardless of the amount of armor they simply don't have enough armor 'cells' to distribute the damage in any significant way.

Armor significance is relative to what you're fighting against. Against most fighter wings you don't need to distribute to survive but it still helps to stop as much damage as possible as higher armor absorbs more damage. Against larger targets its imperative to survival as their weapons can strip all your armor in a single shot or burst.

[Reshy]

Well if that's the case it shouldn't occur on frigates because regardless of the amount of armor they simply don't have enough armor 'cells' to distribute the damage in any significant way.

Armor significance is relative to what you're fighting against. Against most fighter wings you don't need to distribute to survive but it still helps to stop as much damage as possible as higher armor absorbs more damage. Against larger targets its imperative to survival as their weapons can strip all your armor in a single shot or burst.

What I mean is that there aren't enough armor cells on the ship to provide full armor protection (75% damage reduction).

[Thaago]

That depends entirely on the type and magnitude of incoming damage - it reduces a swarmer missile the full amount (getting hit without armor by a swarmer is an extraordinarily painful way of finding out your armor got pierced ). With a little bit of math anything doing 80 damage or under per shot after type adjustments will be reduced to 25% by a 250 armor frigate. Of course that won't last long, but its still really useful against fighters.

[Griffinhart]

I've had similar issues with an Elite-variant Onslaught vs. Standard-variant Onslaught AI fight in the Refit simulator. Elite Onslaught will activate shields, fly into Gauss Cannon range (GCs are mounted on the fixed hardpoints) and then... turn away from the Standard Onslaught.

And keep turning.

Meanwhile, the Standard Onslaught will get into its guns' ranges, and start unloading on the Elite Onslaught, which (by this point) has exposed its bare #!% (what with the front 180 degree shield being fixed and all) and start taking slugs on (and in, eventually) the rear. Mind you, the Elite Onslaught also hasn't fired a single shot (at least, not from its fixed forward-facing guns) and has practically zero flux.

-- Griffinhart

[Reshy]

That depends entirely on the type and magnitude of incoming damage - it reduces a swarmer missile the full amount (getting hit without armor by a swarmer is an extraordinarily painful way of finding out your armor got pierced ). With a little bit of math anything doing 80 damage or under per shot after type adjustments will be reduced to 25% by a 250 armor frigate. Of course that won't last long, but its still really useful against fighters.

The thing is that frigate armor is much less effective as they simply have less overall cells to use.  The more cells the more damage is reduced, so 250 armor on a frigate is less powerful than 250 armor on a destroyer, unless it's one of those rectangular ones because those spread out the cells too thin.  This is partly why the Conquest has such awful armor, because the empty bit in the middle causes a massive amount of damage reduction to disappear.

I've had similar issues with an Elite-variant Onslaught vs. Standard-variant Onslaught AI fight in the Refit simulator. Elite Onslaught will activate shields, fly into Gauss Cannon range (GCs are mounted on the fixed hardpoints) and then... turn away from the Standard Onslaught.

And keep turning.

Meanwhile, the Standard Onslaught will get into its guns' ranges, and start unloading on the Elite Onslaught, which (by this point) has exposed its bare #!% (what with the front 180 degree shield being fixed and all) and start taking slugs on (and in, eventually) the rear. Mind you, the Elite Onslaught also hasn't fired a single shot (at least, not from its fixed forward-facing guns) and has practically zero flux.

-- Griffinhart

This seems to happen a lot, regardless of ship.  It's almost like the AI thinks it's shields don't block explosive damage when it has FRONT shields.