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Author Topic: Economies of Deep Space: Mining, Manufacturing, Trading, and Passengers  (Read 10880 times)

Psigun

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Recently I finished a series of books that catalyzed my interest in the non-combat gameplay of Starfarer (The Golden Age of the Solar Clipper by Nathan Lowell if anyone is interested). I think most of us would agree that the tactical space combat of Starfarer is already the best there is, even in beta. The potential for non-combat gameplay is even greater and I'll explain why. A believable and rich universe is key to making the campaign a success above and beyond the amazing combat, and a vertical integration of supply chains for the economy of Starfarer will give the richness to the universe by offering a wide array of interesting non-combat options. Enriching the setting will make combat itself that much more enjoyable. It would be cool to see AI bustling around being industrious while being harassed by pirates... or you.

Vertical Integration in regards to a supply chain is the idea of following a product from mining the raw material to finished goods being in the hands of consumers. That's grossly simplified, but hopefully it conveys the idea. In terms of Starfarer I imagine a supply chain that would be something like the following: mine raw material, transport raw material, manufacture good from raw material, transport good, sell good to profitable market. How this fits into the game is as a mechanic for producing starships, weapons, modules, commodities, goods, and provides richness and depth to the universe. In my mind I'm picturing a player being able to function as one step in the supply chain depending on what they want to do, or all of them if they want to vertically integrate fully. I'm not sure of the complexity that Fractal Softworks is aiming for, so full integration might be beyond the scope of the game. I'll highlight each area of the supply chain and toss out some ideas next.


Capital: Crews, Workers, Ships and Stations

This isn't a step in the supply chain, but rather the capital and infrastructure required to maintain it.

  • Ships and stations unique to each step in the supply chain. This is already apparent in the beta with cargo haulers and freighters. Ex: Mining ships, Manufacturing stations, Passenger liners, Cargo haulers, Orbital habitats
  • Crews and workers that gain experience for non-combat tasks, just like crews already gain levels for combat. Ex: An elite force of workers on a manufacturing plant may drastically increase profit margins. A green crew on a passenger liner may provide poor service and demand a cheap fare.
  • Ships and stations could have default ratings for each non-combat area. A mining ship might be grade A for mining, but grade F for passengers. A passenger liner might be A for passengers, but C for cargo. A manufacturing station could be A for manufacturing, but D for habitation, making it a bad market for luxury goods delivery but great for producing them. This rating would affect profit, and some jobs might be deeply unprofitable if done with the wrong tools for the job.

Mining

This is the first step in the a simple supply chain. Getting raw resources from some source and delivering them to somewhere for a profit. Asteroids are the obvious source, but salvaging has potential for to fill this niche as well. This step seems pretty straight-forward so I didn't really brainstorm much that was worth mentioning.

  • I'd love to see cargo containers that could be filled up with mined resources and then picked up. This worked well in EvE's mining metagame.

Bulk Freight

Bulk freighters and cargo haulers would be responsible for transporting raw goods and commodities from the original source to a market, whether it's for manufacturing or consumption. These are the goods that rely on sheer volume to transport at a profit. Big and lumbering, they give up speed for mountains of goods, whether it's ore from an asteroid field or grain produced at an agricultural planet. This is the step which would move raw goods to their manufacturing base, or commodities to their destination.

  • Markets variable over time. Fluctuations in market add some risk beyond just pirates and other factions.
  • Distances for this step would be relatively short compared to the next transportation step.

Manufacturing

Here we have the middle step in the simple supply chain. Raw goods come in, finished good or parts come out. Most likely this would be occurring on a station of some sort. There could even be shipyards which convert ship parts into ships as an example of a possible additional step in the supply chain. Players could even produce weapons for use by their own fleet. For credits, things like luxury goods could be produced. Manufacturing bases also provide a destination for goods in the last part of the chain.

  • Blueprints! Just being able to produce whatever you want after getting a station seems a bit imbalanced. Having to buy blueprints from the appropriate agency (ex: tri-tach ship blueprint from tri-tach HQ) would make this step a bit more interesting.
  • Different stations for different purposes. Refineries for fuel, shipyards for ships, industrial stations for weapons and modules... Even habitation stations that would provide people looking for transportation on passenger ships.

Trading

This is differentiated from the Bulk Freight step in the chain by the volume of cargo, type of ship doing the hauling, markets, and distances.  Smaller, faster ships would be key to making this step profitable. Manufactured and finished goods will be of smaller volume and higher value than bulk cargo. Smaller ships means faster ships, and that makes greater distances for cargo delivery a profitable use of time. I'm envisioning a sphere of influence around cargo pickup points, with manufactured goods having a much larger sphere of influence to be profitable than bulk haulers. A nimble trading ship dropping off a load of pharmaceuticals 5 systems away from where it picked them up, contrasted with a huge superhauler hauling grain from an agricultural planet to an industrial desert planet a system or two away for example. They might both get similar profit margins, but in much different ways and means.

  • Distances would be long, volumes small, and cargos dense in value: think computer parts as opposed to bulk silicates.
  • Passengers! The most important cargo of all. I would love to see some passenger liners and yachts that would have a rating on their comfort. Luxury yachts transporting people between systems could demand a huge fare, compared to poor immigrants on a beaten down passenger liner.
  • It would be fun for prices on finished and manufactured goods to be highly variable, making it important to have quick 'runs' to minimize risk, "I made the kessel run in under 12 parsecs!"
  • Variable prices at passenger drop off seems strange. Maybe passengers would pay a fare upfront for delivery to a specific system. The better your ships accommodations and the faster your ship, the better your fare.

Markets

The final step in the simple supply chain. Getting a shipment of beam weapons to a military base. Pharmaceuticals to an Ag. world. Rich passengers on a luxury yacht from an industrial world to a paradise world. The final destinations for cargo would all be involved at the manufacturing or mining (mining grain off an ag. world) phase of the supply chain. The trick here would be setting prices and interactions. I haven't the faintest idea how to setup a believable and entertaining system of market dynamics in a game.

  • Passengers pay fare up front with a set destination
  • Manufactured goods have a high but variable price and low volume, with destinations far apart
  • Raw goods and commodities have a low and stable (still slightly variable) price, high volume, and close destinations. It's logical to build refineries next to mining operations, isn't it?
  • Picturing shipyards and ships as the ultimate step in the Starfarer universe economy. Being able to setup a fully integrated shipyards operation from the bottom up should be a massive undertaking with huge rewards


That was longer than I thought, but I really wanted to brain dump while ideas and thoughts the Solar Clipper books popped into my head were fresh. Hopefully you guys can criticize or expand upon some of my thoughts. You could almost have a whole game built upon the economy, and I think having a fully functioning economy is key to the campaign being as epic as the combat already is.
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hadesian

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That's a lot of text you've got there.
One thing you must always keep in mind - Starfarer is heavily dystopian, and very very fragile. The idea is that the Hegemony represent a return to law and order, and pirates utter chaos and making the most of the collapse. Creating shipyards and such is plain and simply undoable. Only by use of autofactories can ships be made, without the use of basically making them in space, slamming plates together for a hull. As such, I would see that CREATING is impossible, but taking over and exploiting is not. While, indeed, raw goods are still made, there'll be places where that isn't so and the reliance on supplies is colossal. The raw use of parts, food, clothing and prefab building materials is covered by Supplies. Generally everything falls under that umbrella for now, aside from crew, weapons and fuel. And while certainly, mining will come in, and there will be special materials, I don't entirely see there being a completely in depth supply system of goods being manufactured. Even mined materials will probably be used by the player as materials for autofactories or what have you. There'll probably be corporate officers who handle and micromanage the empire for you so stuff like crewing your property won't really matter. Freight jumps probably won't occur, a supply convoy will resupply at one station but continue solo without the cargo changing hands until it reaches the station. Luxury yachts are kinda a no-no.

My thoughts so far
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CrashToDesktop

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I can understand mining and selling raw materials in starfarer in the near or far future, and mining will be my favorite aspect.  However, I can't really see making passenger ships and such, it just doesn't fit in with the convoy raids and battles of starfarer.
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Psigun

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Sorry about the wall of text, I tried to format it. I just had a lot of ideas rolling around in there. I wasn't aware of the campaign setting being dystopian, that certainly would change the feel of any sort of economy. The whole vertically integrated supply chain idea was just an idealized simple system with a max of 4 or 5 steps to it to go from raw material to delivered finished goods. I think a successful economy could come from and smaller segment of the entire supply chain; mining being an example of one segment that could make Starfarer have an interesting economic gameplay component all on its own.
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Psigun

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I can understand mining and selling raw materials in starfarer in the near or far future, and mining will be my favorite aspect.  However, I can't really see making passenger ships and such, it just doesn't fit in with the convoy raids and battles of starfarer.

I can understand the idea that passenger ships don't fit in, but how do people get from point A to point B if not passenger ships?  Do they just stow away on slow bulky freighters whenever someone wants to be on a different planet? If economy was planned at all, the game was never exclusively about combat in the first place, so I'd argue that passenger ships would fit. Maybe not yachts or luxury vessels, but something must exist. Maybe not in the actual gameplay, but behind the scenes. Plus, stuff like bulk haulers, freighters, trading ships, passenger ships, etc. give factions such as pirates a target.
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CrashToDesktop

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It's not like colonists from Corvus II or any other planet would want to take that risk.  I think they'd perfer to stay on their home planet and defend it.
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hadesian

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I can understand mining and selling raw materials in starfarer in the near or far future, and mining will be my favorite aspect.  However, I can't really see making passenger ships and such, it just doesn't fit in with the convoy raids and battles of starfarer.

I can understand the idea that passenger ships don't fit in, but how do people get from point A to point B if not passenger ships?  Do they just stow away on slow bulky freighters whenever someone wants to be on a different planet? If economy was planned at all, the game was never exclusively about combat in the first place, so I'd argue that passenger ships would fit. Maybe not yachts or luxury vessels, but something must exist. Maybe not in the actual gameplay, but behind the scenes. Plus, stuff like bulk haulers, freighters, trading ships, passenger ships, etc. give factions such as pirates a target.
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2. Personal vessels
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Psigun

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Thanks! I guess passenger ships are already in the game in one form. Forgot about that ship and I even regularly use it when I play as a way to store excess crew and marines.

I can understand mining and selling raw materials in starfarer in the near or far future, and mining will be my favorite aspect.  However, I can't really see making passenger ships and such, it just doesn't fit in with the convoy raids and battles of starfarer.

I can understand the idea that passenger ships don't fit in, but how do people get from point A to point B if not passenger ships?  Do they just stow away on slow bulky freighters whenever someone wants to be on a different planet? If economy was planned at all, the game was never exclusively about combat in the first place, so I'd argue that passenger ships would fit. Maybe not yachts or luxury vessels, but something must exist. Maybe not in the actual gameplay, but behind the scenes. Plus, stuff like bulk haulers, freighters, trading ships, passenger ships, etc. give factions such as pirates a target.
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CrashToDesktop

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It's mainly for military use, transportation of crew and marines.
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hadesian

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It's mainly for military use, transportation of crew and marines.
But that's certainly not to say it's safer than a dram or such.
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Psigun

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I think I missed the main point I was trying to make by being overly wordy. I just think it would be cool to have an economy system where you can get an unrefined resource, sell it to somewhere to be refined or refine it yourself into something higher value, and then to sell that finished product to a destination. With transport occurring between the three steps of course to make for 5 steps in a simple system that is vertically integrated.
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CrashToDesktop

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Ah, much better Psigun. ;D
Transportation shouldn't be a problem, with my favorite Tarsus and other large freighters.
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ranprieur

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Psigun, I just registered for the forum to say that the reason I play computer games is for the dream of a game like you're describing.

The reason we're not going to see it in Starfarer any time soon, is that you're talking about a level of complexity that has not yet existed in any game ever. Consider how many programmers it takes to make even a relatively simple game like the Civilization series. I'm excited about Starfarer because it's moving in exactly the right direction, and I look forward to seeing how far it gets.
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Psigun

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Thanks for the kind words for the hour or so I spent writing up the OP. I'd like to thank Fractal Softworks for making a game I can daydream about.

Thinking about the economic stuff I wrote about in the OP, I think I agree with you in that it's just too complex to create a full supply chain for everything. If things were simplified and abstracted, perhaps it would be possible. If there's anyone in all the game dev world I would want to do this sort of thing, it would be Fractal Softworks based on their superlative handling of the combat and ship customization portions of Starfarer. Looking forward to see what they come up with!

Psigun, I just registered for the forum to say that the reason I play computer games is for the dream of a game like you're describing.

The reason we're not going to see it in Starfarer any time soon, is that you're talking about a level of complexity that has not yet existed in any game ever. Consider how many programmers it takes to make even a relatively simple game like the Civilization series. I'm excited about Starfarer because it's moving in exactly the right direction, and I look forward to seeing how far it gets.
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Tarkets

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X3 and Eve online both have complicated and involved supply chains with varying levels of "finished" goods, supply and demand pricing (EVE especially, since it's an mmo), etc etc. So it's by no means impossible, it's just (with regards to Starfarer) how involved do the developers want to go with it
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