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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Blog Posts  (Read 337581 times)

Iscariot

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Re: Blog Posts
« Reply #360 on: April 08, 2012, 01:16:13 AM »

I don't get the reason why the Developers of a game should give a flying f**k of what the players *want*. They make the game, the game has rules, it's really easy. If Alex and the others don't plan to make that variable moddable (as many other variables that aren't) they won't.

Sorry, don't want to sound like a ***, but I'm pretty *** off about what's happening on the Bioware Social Network. Fans Entitlement is getting a lot of hate from my point of view.

Unless your name is Tarn Adams and you plan on releasing your game as freeware and don't mind living on Paypal donations, developers DEFINITELY ought to give a *** about what their players want.

I'm not saying I agree with Nanostrike, but I definitely disagree with that mindset. Alex stated in an interview that he wants to makes the kinds of games that he wanted to play, and that's great-- that's what indie development grants that working in a big company absolutely does not. But there's absolutely nothing 'entitled' about suggesting something that you feel a large number of players will want and criticizing a developer when they do something that you feel might be counter to the creation of a good game. Absolutely *** nothing. Everything on this goddamned forum carries that implicit understanding-- that something in the game might not work optimally and therefore something ought to be changed or added. No one benefits from complacency, the spineless conceit that we're here to pass around backslaps and high fives.

Gamer entitlement is a goddamned myth. We live in a free society and absolutely anyone can say whatever they damn well please, given that developers get the final say-- and they do, Starfarer is not a game legally obligated to be developed via committee. Telling someone to essentially shut up because you feel they're acting entitled is out of line and exudes a brainless deference that benefits absolutely no one. If you disagree with something someone says, then attack the point and explain why it is wrong.
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The idea is that the various tech levels represent different - not "better" - ways to do things.

Cryten

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Re: Blog Posts
« Reply #361 on: April 08, 2012, 01:55:47 AM »

While I agree with both points of view in certain aspect I would just like to say: Players are entitled to state thier opinion on a matter but by no means should they insist that the developers view of the project is wrong. Reasoned argument is good stuff and I personally liked reading some peoples thoughts on the punishment of random chance however it was explained that it is ment to be a consist system and that satisfied me. I feel people who then go and say that the devs reasoning is completely wrong without additional points just arguing that their vision should be the one adopted is wrong and should be discouraged.

I dont like to see tradgedies like Terraria's aborted development, to some extents minecrafts late development and the whole thing with mass effect 3. It overshadows the achievements and fun such games bring.
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Iscariot

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Re: Blog Posts
« Reply #362 on: April 08, 2012, 02:05:46 AM »

A good developer will separate wheat from chaff. What anyone says here can be either, and given that a developer is not obligated to follow anything we say at all, I see no harm at all in insisting that the developer is incorrect so long as it does not edge on harassment. Opinions are opinions-- nothing more, and it is up to the developer whether he is convinced or not. An unsupported dissenting opinion ought to be attacked for being unsupported, not because it has crossed some arbitrary line of courtesy. Again, absolutely no one benefits from complacency, on any grounds. Not the developer, not the dissenter, and not the people opposing the dissenter.

I don't want to talk about Mass Effect 3 too much, but I will say this: I don't know what the hubbub is about, but if the devs are changing something, then they are doing it because it is in their best interest to do so. That ending was five kinds of putrid ***, left to ferment in a covered jar with the corpse of Bioware's creative dignity, and if they decided to do anything to it-- anything at all, then that is THEIR decision. The buck stops with them-- just as we cannot force Alex to make changes that we may want, so too is it impossible to blame 'gamer entitlement' for what may have happened in regards to Mass Effect 3. The final line of responsibility works both ways, and if one claims to respect their creative integrity for whatever they originally put out then one must also respect their creative integrity in anything they may do afterward. You cannot have it both ways.
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The idea is that the various tech levels represent different - not "better" - ways to do things.

Uomoz

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Re: Blog Posts
« Reply #363 on: April 08, 2012, 06:42:49 AM »

If you read my comment carefully you'll notice that I don't want opinions to stop. I just want to express my concerns about the bad influence that many communities gave to games just because there are forums where everyone can say anything. Think about Baldur's Gate (this example is abused but fitting) or other fantastic games before the "fans direct expression age". It's not like not having to work with fans opinion ruined those games.

In short, feel free to express yourself, but before writing something on the line "DEVELOPER do this or the game is gonna suck", think twice, most of the time nobody will hear you (and if they do, that's f*****g wrong).
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Iscariot

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Re: Blog Posts
« Reply #364 on: April 08, 2012, 07:50:14 AM »

And I vehemently disagree with the basis of your concerns, as well as the idea that Nanostrike was being anywhere that spazzy. His request to make accidents moddable for the sake of playtesting while the game is still in alpha was very reasonable. In fact, it's your gross obeisance to developer intent that is the most fanatical-- the closest to typing in all caps on the internet.

There is no 'influence'. If a developer makes a *** decision, that's on them. It's *** hilarious to me that you're flipping out about the fans ruining a game, but you're apparently content when publishing companies regularly and with great frequency *** the goodness out of video games.
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The idea is that the various tech levels represent different - not "better" - ways to do things.

cp252

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Re: Blog Posts
« Reply #365 on: April 08, 2012, 08:00:56 AM »

First of all, calm down both of you. There's no need to drop the F bomb.
Personally I think we the players have a right to be heard and have our concerns addressed, if only because Alex has made clear his intent to accept player input. As for Mass Effect 3, it's the developer's choice, and if they chose to listen to their fans that too is their choice.
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K-64

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Re: Blog Posts
« Reply #366 on: April 08, 2012, 08:09:37 AM »

I wouldn't say that the players have the "right" to be heard, yes it's rather expected these days, but the developers don't have to do anything about it. While I do like how the players are listened to, I really despise it when players think they should be treated like special little snowflakes because they chose to pay money for something. They weren't forced to, and they aren't forced to play it.

But regardless of that minirant, I must give Alex kudos for having such a close relation with the players of Starfarer :)
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Uomoz

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Re: Blog Posts
« Reply #367 on: April 08, 2012, 08:12:26 AM »

First of all, calm down both of you. There's no need to drop the F bomb.
Personally I think we the players have a right to be heard and have our concerns addressed, if only because Alex has made clear his intent to accept player input. As for Mass Effect 3, it's the developer's choice, and if they chose to listen to their fans that too is their choice.

Yeah, my posts were pretty much OT. I'm sorry. I rest my case, no offence or anything intended.

In the end i like this game because it have it's very personality and it's going his own (a little hardcore) way, so I'm pretty much satisfied.

A game should be created as fun in the developers image.  If others enjoy it: so much the better.

Iscariot, I'm sorry if I managed to be offensive, don't hate me please ;).
« Last Edit: April 08, 2012, 08:21:18 AM by Uomoz »
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Iscariot

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Re: Blog Posts
« Reply #368 on: April 08, 2012, 08:38:35 AM »

I wouldn't say that the players have the "right" to be heard, yes it's rather expected these days, but the developers don't have to do anything about it. While I do like how the players are listened to, I really despise it when players think they should be treated like special little snowflakes because they chose to pay money for something. They weren't forced to, and they aren't forced to play it.


They absolutely have the 'right' in the sense that anyone could post commentary about any game to express their opinion (in a few years... we'll see), but you are absolutely right that players ought not demand special treatment.


Yeah, my posts were pretty much OT. I'm sorry. I rest my case, no offence or anything intended.

In the end i like this game because it have it's very personality and it's going his own (a little hardcore) way, so I'm pretty much satisfied.

I like that it's going hardcore as well. I like hardcore games a lot. I may have showed my hand, but I like Dwarf Fortress a lot, and that's pretty much as hardcore as you can get. I just don't like this idea of gamer entitlement that's somehow made its way into the minds of other gamers. In every industry there's critique of what goes on, and there has to be because that's how consumerism works. People buy things, or they don't, people say good things or they don't. People spread their opinions and a general consensus is made about how to progress.

In this day and age, all sorts of people and organizations hide behind the facade of 'artistic integrity'. In my home country of the United States, copyright law is one such way that companies hide behind artistic integrity to maintain intellectual properties so they don't have to deal with competition. As far as I'm concerned, 'gamer entitlement' is a myth that accomplishes much the same thing-- by discrediting critique, companies don't have to innovate, don't have to be held to account for their mistakes.

I don't mean to say that Alex is afraid of critique, because he clearly is not given his willingness to engage with so many concerns, but he and every other developer can benefit from suggestions, whether he follows them or not. I'm sorry if I came on a little strong, but that's just because I do feel strongly about the notion of consumer rights, and I don't like fanatical loyalty. Loyalty-- the best loyalty-- is measured with reason.
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The idea is that the various tech levels represent different - not "better" - ways to do things.

Alex

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Re: Blog Posts
« Reply #369 on: April 08, 2012, 09:06:23 AM »

But people are going to want the option to roll around for fun in 200 FP fleets.  If the accidents are hard-coded in, you won't even be able to use your 200 FP fleet in a modded out "Sandbox" mode.  It'd be a pretty big damper.

In the next version, that won't be possible. After skills are in, the way to do that would be to alter the bonuses the command skill gives you, rather than changing how accidents work. It's not something that lends itself readily to being moddable.

Also, will accidents affect NPC fleets?

Yes.



About the whole entitlement/artistic integrity/player comments thing (glad that simmered down a bit, btw :)):

I really value the feedback and comments - it helps make Starfarer a better game! That was a large part of the reason for releasing it early - imo, waiting to release until a game is "done" is taking a huge risk. That being said, I have a very definite vision of where I want the game to go, and that's not going to change - but player feedback is invaluable in making sure it actually gets there.
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weed33

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Re: Blog Posts
« Reply #370 on: April 08, 2012, 09:15:02 AM »

This is the problem with having a large portion of you're fanbase come from Totalbiscuit. He has mentioned this in his recent videos and his viewers tend to be rather vocal at times.

K-64

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Re: Blog Posts
« Reply #371 on: April 08, 2012, 09:18:14 AM »

I wouldn't say that the players have the "right" to be heard, yes it's rather expected these days, but the developers don't have to do anything about it. While I do like how the players are listened to, I really despise it when players think they should be treated like special little snowflakes because they chose to pay money for something. They weren't forced to, and they aren't forced to play it.


They absolutely have the 'right' in the sense that anyone could post commentary about any game to express their opinion (in a few years... we'll see), but you are absolutely right that players ought not demand special treatment.

That's what I meant, I just worded it really crappily, I tend to do that
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Nanostrike

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Re: Blog Posts
« Reply #372 on: April 08, 2012, 04:56:59 PM »

Wow.  Didn't mean to start a gigantic drama storm.

I like the accident system, actually.  I wasn't suggesting it be taken out of the core game or anything.  There absolutely needs to be something like that to balance out how much damage a high FP fleet can do with how many resources it takes to keep that fleet running and the risks involved.

I just like to occasionally mod up a bunch of 200 FP fleets and let them wander around to see and participate in huge battles.  Once the accidents are in, that won't be very easy to do, which is kinda disappointing.



That said...will we ever see some sort of a "Skirmish" or "Free battle" system, where instead of playing a Mission or the Campaign, you can choose forces for both sides and go to town?  That would make my earlier point completely moot, as I'd be able to rig up big battles at will.  Or test out a new ship variant.  Or just generally have fun.
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Temjin

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Re: Blog Posts
« Reply #373 on: April 09, 2012, 07:37:32 PM »

A "skirmish" mode would be fun.
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icepick37

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Re: Blog Posts
« Reply #374 on: April 09, 2012, 07:58:08 PM »

I would bet big money that a custom battle is on the radar. It's just on the radar for after campaign features.

That said I would also really like custom battles, haha. It would be a lot of fun to test our crazy variants and stuff.
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“I [may] not agree with a word that you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”
- Voltaire
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