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Author Topic: Newcomer's impression of the game  (Read 6758 times)

Krelian

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Newcomer's impression of the game
« on: June 17, 2011, 12:54:31 AM »



Hi, Im a recent new owner of starfarer (big thanks to mendonca and alex btw), and these are my impressions after playing with it for a while.
I hope these are viewed as constructive criticism instead of anything else. My objetive, is that if anything, this can serve as some feedback to the developer(s?).
Oh, and I understand pretty well this is an alpha, and what that means.



What I thought of it before playing:

I first heard of the game in bay12 forums, where I linger a lot.
The impression I had from the game, was that of some sort of freelance space game, where you own a ship, or a group of ships, and do whatever you feel like, arround systems, etc. Pretty much like X3:Terran conflict, but with a topdown view. This is not me trying to just pigeonhole starfarer, but when you read about a game you have never played, the natural thing you do is trying to associate it with something you know.
The combat I was loving. Im a die hard fan of Master of orion 2, and what I liked the most of that game were the space battles. The previews of starfarer had a strong atmosphere of moo2, and I loved it.
Customization of spaceships is another thing I highly look upon for this game. The very Moo2, gratuitous space battles, SE4-5, etc, makes you design ships to any philosofy (firepower, maneuverability, defense, special effects, etc). And that combined to the ability to design whole fleets, with ships filling certain aspects, boy, that is fun as hell!.



First impressions

Well, the first thing to notice, is the early phase of the game. Im not complaining, just saying. The aspects of designing and freelancing are yet to be released, and Im super ansious for them!. What we have is the combat engine.
(Btw, a question, the freelancing will be in another engine, or we will see everything from the combat perspective when starfaring ?)
I must say, I was hoping to get a different combat experience. More strategic & epic, and less frantic & chaotic.
What I mean is, right know, it feels a bit like playing r-type/gradius/axelay (but without the force advancing). Well the comparision is a bit extreme, but is what it came to my mind with the chaotic nature of it, and "action oriented" in the sense, you need some reflexes to face the shield to the right place, go arround swaping weapons, dodging, venting, etc. A bit too much arcade-like, IMO.
Personally, Im not very much into that kind of game, I feel overwhelm. I usually preffer more strategic games, and specially for spaceship games, more slow games. Where you have time to appreciate the battle. Look at the slugfest, giving the main orders, but otherwise, enjoying the show. I would like something more like a moo2 battle, with real time instead of turns, but slower real time, if you know what I mean.
Another thing that has been annoying me a bit, is the fact you are given a ship pre made and with already set weapon groups, and companion ships you dont know very well; but that clearly is just a consequense of the early stage of the game. Im very eager to see the ship customization options :D



What I would like

With spaceships, I think the great part is the epicness and scale. If ships move too fast (even the big ones) that effect is kinda lost. I think of, for example, Sword of the stars battles. Those I enjoy a lot. I just give the basic orders, then zoom in a bit and watch, correcting now a then some orders, but mainly just enjoy the fireworks.  Seeing a ship slowly turn to face the broadside with the turrents, then see those turrent slowly track the enemy, and then shoot. Awesome. If ships move too fast, all I see is some chaotic gradius action. Of couse it is understandable that some ships move fast. Fighters and bombers should be as fast as they are, and small ships like corvettes too. But the rest. The more slower-bulkier-longed-ranged, the better.
I would like to feel like the commander, not the helmsman. I mean, yeah, direct the ship, but not having to need quick reflexes and things like that (unless piloting a fighter of course).  Also, I would like more deep mechanics in autoturrets. I should only need to focus on the main batteries/torpedoes. I will get on that later.
Something that I found super epic in the current one, for example, is the gravitom beam on the tutorial mission. Those slowly turning beams that then locks up on the poor target are so awesome, that I continued using them even after the shield was gone :p. You can feel while you wait the turrets to turn that once they do, it would have been worth the wait.



Some suggestions

Well, these are the things I would like to eventually see in the game. Like all sugestions, Im not trying to impose them, but rather just saying, what I would enjoy the most. So please dont flame me if you dont agree. (Civilized alternatives are always welcome)

An option to change the speed of combat simulation.
Just as a lot of games have options to "speed up" things, I would like one that allows to slow the simulation, so you can actually enjoy more of the show, instead of have to be primarily multitasking. We have starcraft for that :p.
I would say straight ahead "make the game slower", but maybe its not the game you are conceiving on your mind, or that other players might enjoy.
A slow down button, I think would make some people happy, and the rest wont mind it. And at the same time, I think (not sure, not into programming that much) it could be at the same time a speed up button for those who would like it.
The problem I see with this is that, lets say, seeing the action at half speed, would also mean I see lasers and shots traveling slower, with is not epic at all. But thats the only thing I can think of without having to slow down the whole game.

More strategic options
I dont know if this is already there but I have missed it, or is a planned feature not yet implemented, or something not planned. But I think having only "seek and destroy" order (plus dock for fighters) is kinda bland.
Patrol on a X km radious; Follow me; Escort X Ship, Attack X ship, Skirmish (for longer ranged vessels), etc, are some basic options to properly manage a fleet.
These maybe could be limited by the pilot skill/personality of the target ship.
Right now is almost like "summon" ships, then forget about them while you control yours. Hear later they killed something, or got killed a couple of screens away.

Condicion based Auto-Fire turrets
This is something a bit critical to me. Having the goal of just focusing on the direction of your ship and the bigger gun, means all the tons of small weapons need to be efficient while automatic.
So I think a system of condicions and actions (similar to, for example dragonage:origin's companions orders) for turrets/weapon groups would be great.
This also makes the ship customization much more deep (and fun, IMO).
For example, you have your non-pd laser, intended for small corvettes but, useless against destroyers or more.
So the AI of the turret activetes when something enter their range, then you set "If target ship speed/hull/shields/firepower/etc is lower/slower/larger/faster/etc than X", then you add either another condicion to make it more intelligent, or the order to fire (and maybe how: fire at will, small bursts, until flux is at X, etc).
These could be manned by ship personal, and the skil of those personal affect the options available, or maybe a ship component like a "battle computer", in which its grade determines the options... or maybe both, who knows.
The player, if he planned the orders with care, would only need to focus on directing the ship, and using the main weapon on his target, (usually a ship of similar class of it own) and forget about incomming missiles, figthers, smaller ships in general, and maybe even the bigger-immune-to-this-ship enemy ship.


Well, those are my first thoughts about this game. Im very eager to finally access the customization aspects of the game, and the sandbox! Keep the good work.
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Ivaylo

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Re: Newcomer's impression of the game
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2011, 01:03:03 AM »

Hi Krelian,


Welcome to Starfarer. Thank you for the long and thought out post. I will not answer point by point, but just wanted to throw in that regarding the "strategic" piece you mention, Alex (and I to a degree) is hard at work solving that exact problem. We want to have the player be the helmsman and have the battles feel epic at the same time. I believe an answer is forthcoming, and I can't really get into the details just yet, since they are changing. However, I am pretty excited about the direction things are going in, because I, like you, do not like really like fast frantic battle experiences with lots of chaos.

Stay tuned!

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frostphoenyx

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Re: Newcomer's impression of the game
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2011, 01:33:24 AM »

Woah. I am afraid by your answer. I love the current pace of the battles, i don't think they need to get slower. To the OP, i think you're looking for a RTS game, send your troops and enjoy the show.
As for me, and I think many Starfarer's fans here will agree with me, I love to be part of the action, controlling my ship and making tactical decisions, like the orientation of the shield as you said.
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Krelian

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Re: Newcomer's impression of the game
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2011, 01:55:24 AM »

We want to have the player be the helmsman and have the battles feel epic at the same time.

Great news! I wasn't so wrong then.

To the OP, i think you're looking for a RTS game, send your troops and enjoy the show.

Not an RTS, just a more slowed down, more tactical space battle game, piloting the ship, but winning battles more with your way of facing the problem, more than with quick reflexes and good aiming.

Just as you say that I'm looking for an RTS, I could say you are loking for an FSP; dodging enemy fire, taking cover (with the shield) and accurately clicking on top of the enemy to shot at it.


making tactical decisions, like the orientation of the shield as you said.

That is not tactical decision, thats reflexes, having to move your mouse quickly enought to move the shield from say, the left where an ship was firing at you, to the back, to avoid incomming bomber fire, all in less than a second. Nothing tactical there, that's pure action & reflexes.
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frostphoenyx

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Re: Newcomer's impression of the game
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2011, 02:08:12 AM »

That is not tactical decision, thats reflexes, having to move your mouse quickly enought to move the shield from say, the left where an ship was firing at you, to the back, to avoid incomming bomber fire, all in less than a second. Nothing tactical there, that's pure action & reflexes.

Reflexes? My grandfather has better reflexes than it is needed to play this game :p

Joke aside, i don't think we'll agree here. You want the battles to be slower, and I want it to stay as it is :)
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Krelian

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Re: Newcomer's impression of the game
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2011, 02:11:49 AM »

yeah.. Im getting a bit old u_u

and yeah, we disagree, but thats why one of my suggestions was a "slow down" button. Both could play the way we like. At least, your style of game would be totally unaffected.
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Ivaylo

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Re: Newcomer's impression of the game
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2011, 02:27:41 AM »

To clarify, I was not talking about the speed/reflexes needed to pilot your own ship. The stuff I am talking about has more to do with controlling your fleet, and having a better idea of what they are all up to, without having to pause every second.

IMHO, with the current build, reflexes have little to do with how well you do. I do not think the FPS vs RTS analogy is a good one. An RTS can be WAY more frantic than an FPS, especially if it is a micro-heavy RTS.

Our goal is for battles to be more streamlined from a tactical point of view. They will not be slower.



« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 02:39:44 AM by Ivaylo »
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frostphoenyx

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Re: Newcomer's impression of the game
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2011, 02:44:50 AM »

Thanks for the clarification  ;D
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Alex

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Re: Newcomer's impression of the game
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2011, 09:36:30 AM »

Hi Krelian, thanks for dropping by and sharing your thoughts! I'll try to address everything, but if I miss something, do bring it up again :)

First off, what Ivaylo said - we've got some war room changes in the works that should make it a lot less RTS-like and more strategic. Not that RTSes aren't strategic, you just have to do a lot of work to get there. Think of these changes this way - now, you're telling your fleet how to do things. What we want is to have you tell them what to do.

Second, customization - yeah, it's coming, and it can't get here soon enough!

Btw, a question, the freelancing will be in another engine, or we will see everything from the combat perspective when starfaring

Different screen.

I must say, I was hoping to get a different combat experience. More strategic & epic, and less frantic & chaotic.

Now, we get to the meat of your post.

One of the goals of Starfarer is to support different play styles. One example is large fleet vs small fleet - both will be viable. Another example is the feel of ships in combat. Small ships are indeed meant to feel a bit arcade-like - though of course, not entirely. Large ships, on the other hand (cruiser & above), are slow, ponderous, armed with weapons of various utility, and more strategic in nature.

For example, if you're tearing about in a Tempest-class attack frigate, yes, you'll have to make some faster decisions. I'd still say that it's not at the reflex action level (with is tenths of a second), just actual quick decisions.

On the other hand, if you're piloting an Apogee ("Hornet's Nest" flagship), you'll have to think further ahead. The ship is slow enough that once you committ to a course of action ("move in on the enemy destroyer and attack with anti-matter blasters", say), you won't be able to back out of that decision quickly. So if it turns out it was a bad one, you'll pay the price - say, in the form of a bomber wing successfully attacking you from the flank. With capital ships, like the Astral in "Coral Nebula" (the Apogee is a cruiser), the difference is more pronounced.

I think the game seems chaotic at first because of the learning curve. Once you know what things are important to look for (incoming torpedoes), and which aren't (those two wings of interceptors chipping away at your armor in vain), it really does become quite manageable. On the other hand, what feels "epic" the first time you try it might very well become boring the tenth time around.

There's always going to be an element of manual skill in controlling the ship, though. Turning just so to cause a near torpedo miss, angling the ship so your front shields come up in time to block a missile volley, catching a fighter wing with a broadside of heavy weapons that usually have a hard time hitting them. But on the whole (pardon if I'm starting to ramble a bit), I think you'd find large ships and fleets more to your liking.

Down the line, the addition of appropriate ship systems will make smaller ships more action-y, and larger ships more strategic.


The player, if he planned the orders with care, would only need to focus on directing the ship, and using the main weapon on his target, (usually a ship of similar class of it own)

To be honest, that's what I find myself doing already. I'll usually put a few appropriate groups on autofire (3 & 4 on the first-mission Hammerhead), a hardpoint group on manual, and switch to fire off missiles when appropriate.

and forget about incomming missiles, figthers, smaller ships in general, and maybe even the bigger-immune-to-this-ship enemy ship.

Well, since there's no artificial "this size of ship is useless vs that" mechanic, you have to pay attention. But you're certainly free to ignore things that aren't threats - such as the aforementioned interceptors, if your armor is heavy enough and mostly intact. The trouble (and to me, the fun) is figuring out just what the tactical options are at any given moment, and using that knowledge to make good decisions.
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Krelian

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Re: Newcomer's impression of the game
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2011, 05:48:29 PM »

I must admit I had not tried that mission yet.
Yes, piloting the Apogee is exactly what I was looking for :D

Still I have a couple of questions.

The auto-fire turret discrimitane their targets? Or just shoots the first thing it sees ?

If no, then would my 3rd suggestion be possible?


Im glad to hear we are getting more "commanding" options.

Excelent game so far

regards :)
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Lordxorn

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Re: Newcomer's impression of the game
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2011, 03:59:43 PM »

The biggest draw for me is the strategic elements mentioned in the description for the game, which was command your fleet, and exploit planets for resources, etc..

While I agree that the tactical combat of this game exceeds the Gratuitous Space Battles level, can Alex merge a fun strategic layer on top of the excellent tactical combat. 

There are some people who would rather the crew of a ship manage the best way to shield their ship, as opposed to me a Galactic Ruler having to tell my ship captains such...

So is the focus of the game going to be the latter or former?
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Flare

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Re: Newcomer's impression of the game
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2011, 06:51:42 PM »

Not an RTS, just a more slowed down, more tactical space battle game, piloting the ship, but winning battles more with your way of facing the problem, more than with quick reflexes and good aiming.

Just as you say that I'm looking for an RTS, I could say you are loking for an FSP; dodging enemy fire, taking cover (with the shield) and accurately clicking on top of the enemy to shot at it.

I think this problem would solve itself when we have campaign, we would in all respects like to conserve our forces and make sure not too many of our own ships blow up. While we can technically win a skirmish in the set missions all by out lonesome with the right ship, doing so in campaign is likely only to give you a temporary Pyrrhic victory due to your inability to follow up on that victory.
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