Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[BoringIndividual]

Hey all! Before I continue, I would just like to say I am both relatively new to Starsector and on occasion can be very dumb. If I say something that is blatantly wrong or has been brought up before, PLEASE correct me below. I did do some light testing beforehand, but I’m no scientist and might’ve messed up.

In short, I feel like the black market is too easy to use. In my first few hours of the game I avoided the black market like the plague, strictly only using the inferior open market for every world. However, a few hours in and I eventually just started flying in transponder on, loading up on supplies and fuel on the black market with no regard for my suspicion level at all. At worst I was carrying too much at once and lost a couple relation points due to uncertainty, no big deal. Additionally, (although I am not certain) patrols seem to have a “grace period” where after you get scanned they will leave you alone for a while, allowing for effortless acquisition of drugs and organs, with transponder on no less. Plus, I like the idea of the black market having a sense of “danger” to it so I was thinking that the black market could be riskier to use, or have temporarily restricted access in the beginning of the game.

   I find it a bit weird how patrols will chew me out for having a few syringes of liquid fun in my cargo holds, but ignore the also illegally acquired warship they are being held on. Unless I have gotten lucky, ships bought off the black market apparently don’t count as contraband. I feel like illegally bought ships and some “dangerous” weapons that can't be found on the open market like plasma cannons should be briefly considered illegal on purchase. If I were a Hegemony patrol officer, I would be confused as to how a player character got their hands on a newly installed Tachyon Lance on their brand-new Apogee in the middle Hegemony space. Losing ships and weapons to confiscation would maybe be a huge pain and an unfun mechanic to some players, so maybe a fine or a larger decrease in reputation loss overall is better suited. I feel like if harder punishments are put on players for getting caught, the black market turns into the “fast and risky” option while the open market is the “less prosperous, but safer” option. There isn't really a strong deterrent as of right now. After all, smuggled goods aren’t making these factions money and I know for sure I hate leaking credits. I wouldn’t go easy on smugglers as a colony administrator.

   Or maybe the new contact mechanics could be used to make the black market unusable until an underworld contact is made, allowing access to black markets in all of the faction’s worlds after the connection is made. I’d imagine that if local port authorities can’t find these criminal hideouts, our character won’t fare much better in their searches until they get an “in” of sorts.

   I wouldn’t consider these suggestions, I don’t know if other players than myself would find these new mechanics fun, and would probably be a huge pain to program into the game. I just wanted to see what other people thought about the imbalance in markets. I personally see no reason to use the open market and would personally love to have a reason to. However, this is just a list of things a fan of the game thought of for fun and no other reason. Thanks for reading .

[intrinsic_parity]

I completely agree with you, I think the penalties for using the black market are nowhere near enough to balance the quality of goods and the prices of stuff on the black market.

I acquire the majority of my ships via purchase on the black market because you can get most ships up to cruiser size in pristine condition at a discount without a commission. I also pretty much snap-buy any weapon I want off the black market.

There's been discussion of the black market being a bit too strong in a few different contexts (I've mentioned this idea in threads about ship accessibility and salvaging on a couple occasions, and I'm pretty sure it's come up in discussions about some of the most extreme smuggling stuff you can do), but I don't think there's anything wrong with making a new thread explicitly about it.

[Megas]

Most of my black market visits are at the pop-up pirate bases (where I shop first, then raid, and finally kill for the bounty).  I go to those bases to mainly buy crew and marines roughly a third less than from my colony resources, although I occasionally dump vendor trash there.

[scrye]

I have to say that I don't find the black market particularly hard to access and in fact I tend to end up basically never using the "official" markets at all most of the time.  I don't find this to be a huge issue in terms of my overall enjoyment of the game, but I do agree that the risk/reward threshold for the black markets is not really high enough to feel like an impactful decision.  Saving the 30% tax is virtually always the superior choice, and the drawbacks/penalties are generally avoidable.  Gotta hustle that bustle

I agree that if reputation loss were more of a threat - or perhaps even if your reputation could be capped at some lower threshold until you cleared your name - or if loss of goods or ship parts to confiscation were a larger risk, the decision to use black markets might feel more impactful.

Another possibility might be to somehow worsen the quality of markets where there is consistent active black market activity, especially with large transfers of funds.  Surely those taxes you and other smugglers are dodging are being used for something by local government, no?

Perhaps it might even be beneficial to make black market transactions require story points, as per the coming update.  That way there would be a kind of cap on how often they could be used, and the option to save credits vs. save story points could be a meaningful decision.

[imperialus]

It's a fair critique, and I think the trade mechanics have been something that Alex has struggled with quite a bit. I remember a blog post from several years ago where he discussed trade but damned if I can find it. Basically, he wanted to set it up so that there wasn't a super strong incentive for players to engage in trade outside of the mission system. This led to the tariff system, which basically got the black market tacked on to at least make trade somewhat viable. Here's the thing though, I then ask myself, is it worth dev time to rework? I gotta figure, probably not. Trade should be fluff from the player perspective. It needs to be there, but it doesn't really need to do anything other than run in the background. I mean sure Starsector has an economic system, but we aren't playing something from the Patrician series here.

I mean think about it from a big picture perspective. Starsector is about big ol' spaceship shootemups, and pretty much everything else in the game is just built around supporting that core concept. Just think about the feedback loop. Everything centers around getting bigger cooler ships with bigger cooler guns to fight bigger cooler battles. Early game, kill pirates, take ships kill bigger bounties, buy ships, repeat until ready to move to...  Midgame, load up fuel, explore systems, tear apart research stations and ruins. Find cool gunz shoot **Redacted** and make phat stacks which is in turn invested in... Lategame, found colony, make more phat stacks, to buy better ships, to build orbital works, to build lategame ships to shoot all the things.

Trade just doesn't fit in with that. Sure if I'm ship shopping, and flying about the core worlds anyhow I'll take a delivery contract or three just to pay for the cost of fuel but that is hardly core to the experience. Often trade can help in the very early game, when you are saving up to build a proper combat fleet and run a few organs or lobster around the black market if you can't find a trade contract or a bounty you are capable of killing, but other than that? Why bother?

[scrye]

I respectfully disagree re; the relative unimportance of trade.  I think that the economic challenges of the game are part of what makes it fun.  Yes, the player can eventually overcome these, but I think that they are part of what make the earlier parts of the game more interesting and challenging, as you have to weigh your options and make the most of what you have economically to progress, and it affects your choices for ship hulls and parts as well as the ranges you can reasonably explore on the map (hyperfuel monies).  While combat is arguably a larger part of the game, I don't think the game would be the same without the economic forces that under-gird the acquisition of ship hardware and infrastructure, either.

That said, I would reluctantly agree that if push comes to shove, polishing the combat mechanics is more important if it really does come down to a limited number of dev hours.

[isyourmojofly]

It's always hard to talk about features like the black market because, well, the game isn't finished yet. I would like to see more engagement and variety with commodities, because right now the choice is really easy. It could be as simple as getting fined by patrol fleets if they catch you, even if you've got nothing on you.

[imperialus]

I respectfully disagree re; the relative unimportance of trade.  I think that the economic challenges of the game are part of what makes it fun.

And that's totally fair. Like isyourmojofly said too it is difficult to say what might be coming down the pipeline, though if you read the in development patch notes  (https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=19253.0) there is no mention of an economic revamp so I wouldn't get my hopes up. I agree there is a place for trade in a lot of playthroughs, but for the most part, this is filled by the bar contracts, which will be fleshed out further by the 'personal contacts' subsystem. I would argue that the mission system works 'well enough' for early game trading, especially since the actual economic system needs to be balanced around the fact that the player will regularly be returning to the core worlds loaded up with AI cores and high-value loot during the exploration phase of the game.

Again, think big picture. It would be nice if the player could turn a healthy profit by finding a good trade route and running high-value cargo around the core worlds, but you have to factor in how quickly it would break the game if the same profit margin that allowed easy, profitable trade held true when the player came rolling in out of the deep periphery with three Colloussus class freighters loaded to the bulkheads with high-value cargo. You'd be exchanging a slightly more entertaining early game (where it is still entirely possible to engage in profitable trade through the mission system) for a completely borked midgame as you could potentially end up in a situation where the player is positioned to start founding a colony immediately after their first deep space exploration.

[Mordodrukow]

I never use black market as a source of profit, but i always buy ships there, because ships in regular market are garbage and i dont want to be comissioned with anyone (for roleplay reasons, because mechanically penalty for quitting the faction is nonesense).

I agree with TS. And i think, reputation system needs complete rework to balance that.

[sector_terror]

...I feel like the black market is too easy to use. In my first few hours of the game I avoided the black market like the plague, strictly only using the inferior open market for every world. However, a few hours in and I eventually just started flying in transponder on, loading up on supplies and fuel on the black market with no regard for my suspicion level at all. At worst I was carrying too much at once and lost a couple relation points due to uncertainty, no big deal. Additionally, (although I am not certain) patrols seem to have a “grace period” where after you get scanned they will leave you alone for a while, allowing for effortless acquisition of drugs and organs, with transponder on no less.

     There is no programed grace period, far as I know. What I think is happening is the fleets disengage from their current route to chase you, which slows them down for the turn, or just some lag time for the AI. Either way you have to build for this kind of speed. Patrol fleets are fast, 18-20 speed fast(most places have a burn boost thing.) So you will need to build your fleet with burn speed in mind, which can effect your fleet in it's entirety. Even if burn boosting oxen(I believe thats the ship) help, they still take up slots already filled with cargo runners. your fleet has to built to task or there will be times you simply cant get away. Even with that build if the patrol is in path to you already, the time to accelerate to 20 will get your caught quite often.

I find it a bit weird how patrols will chew me out for having a few syringes of liquid fun in my cargo holds, but ignore the also illegally acquired warship they are being held on. Unless I have gotten lucky, ships bought off the black market apparently don’t count as contraband.

     They do count, you're just lucky. black market weapon modules count. I can confirm I've been pulled over for just buying a ship and putting nothing on it, same with weapon modules. Ships do seem to be lower weight, but that's about it. With the new system that lets you buy ships in a custom order that might no longer be needed, but it would be a nightmare if using the black market for ships was too difficult. We do agree on how that could be played out thought. Losing the ships would be way too big a punishment. Though, it does beg the question of whats worse: A brand new Tachyon Lance, or 2,000,000 in credits worth of goods. It might make the system too difficult for traders. Maybe I'm just being defensive, but this will depend heavily on how the new contacts system effects the ability to build relation.


[quote author=BoringIndividual link=topic=19837.msg307345#msg307345 date=1614041938
Or maybe the new contact mechanics could be used to make the black market unusable until an underworld contact is made, allowing access to black markets in all of the faction’s worlds after the connection is made. I’d imagine that if local port authorities can’t find these criminal hideouts, our character won’t fare much better in their searches until they get an “in” of sorts.
[/quote]

     I agree with Alex in that limiting the players options to make something arbitrarily seem more scarce then it would be naturally isn't a good idea. some ships are rare because they're rare, the whole game, not because some minor restriction stops you once and barely has to be "maintained" in any way. Plus it makes a lot of trade and black market jobs unnecessarily harder for the sake of feel. I also dont want to even think of trying to find a system to apply the same to being liked by a faction, which also cuts your suspicion level.
     Relationships with factions are already hard to max and take a lot of time. The punishment of the black market isn't in getting caught once or twice, it's messing up and getting cause every 3-4 trips, to the point you lose reputation faster than you can hope to gain it. I think sticking to a single variable and making it more severe is the wrong way to go. Instead why not this idea, add fines. Have them punish randomly so you never know what you'll lose. It depends on the inspector; Some demand captains demands a fine, others demand the cost of supplies to mobilize and chase you, making you pay for them, is enough. Some may take some of your cargo for "use in tracking your purchases"(which could be legit and end in a later fine, or just be a corrupt captain taking the chance to steal.) Hell even the question to which they choose has world-building.

[isyourmojofly]

Yeah, the more I think about adding fines for smuggling the more I like it. Currently the only penalty is getting caught red-handed, which means losing everything. If you get caught after making the sale, though, there's no penalty at all. It'd be cool if you had a chance to get hit with a fine whether you were caught red-handed or not - the black market becomes consistently more expensive but less ruinous if you do get hit. Plus you could have a variety of corrupt/honest patrol captains who may be more or less likely to look the other way.

[Eji1700]

It could use a lot of depth, but some of that comes with tweaking the economy lottery in general.

Personal thoughts-

1. Not every pilot should have the same access to the black market.  Just got his first ship squeaky shoes mc nice guy really shouldn't have tremendous black market contacts.  I feel like rep/skills/conditions should all play a part in whats available in a black market.

2. Coming screaming on with full burn + transponder on reallllly shouldn't transition straight to me loading up guns, organs, drugs, and ships and streaking out again....maaaaaybe with a nasty letter(to say nothing of the planetary scans, resources, weapons, and ships i probably just dumped on the black market dock).  Stealth already exists in the game as shown by the tutorial, and having the black market have more/better stuff because you went dark and slunk into a colony would really help give a payoff to fleets that care about sensor profile and the sneaky mobility skills/mods.

3. With those in mind, ideally, by default black market should probably always have the basics (supplies, crew, some trash weaponry).  Skills and rep mostly determine what you can FIND in the black market.  How you got into the port + ship mods like shielded hull should determine how risky it is to buy/sell some of those items.  Landing on some random port as johnny mc nobody and waltzing over to the capital ship section of black market should maybe still be possible, but only on the understanding that you're going to be E burning your fleet out of the system with some VERY *** off locals (that said having them seize the stolen goods or force a fine should also be possible outcomes rather than just instant battle).

That may not be the perfect setup, but I think that this gives waay more interaction to the black market, and could make "smuggling" builds more interesting. As both selling and buying on the market now takes more skill, you can also increase the rewards.  It gives a reason for you to up your rep with pirates as well, and should potentially lead to very powerful weaponry/ships, as another way to get them (main one being getting rep with a faction and joining, with the more common way currently being salvage).

Granted some of this is pretty intensive, so as a start, I think just tweaking what the market shows based on how you got into the system would help a lot.  It may already do that, but i honestly can't remember since it's already "good enough" as is because a huge portion of what the market is used for is tariff free selling of goods.  If you limit that (can only sell 5k worth or something if you come in blazing) I think you'll see a lot more players looking for less well defended worlds they can sneak into in order to offload their goods and maybe get better goodies.


Oh side thing-

TRANSPONDERS!  It's a good idea, but there needs to be more to it. On and off is fine, but spoofing/veiling/something to temporarily allow you to approach a heavily guarded world in a "transponder off" state would be cool.  Maybe have it be very short, require hacking a local node, and possibly a skill/hull mod (or any combination of these)

[sector_terror]

That's not a bad idea. I was talking to a navy man earlier about radar spoofing. It be an interesting thing to add, a system in your fleet settings to mark what your transponder "sends." Not sure how it work but future idea

[Flying Birdy]

I have an alternate suggests that is a quick fix. Rather than making the black market accessible at all times, the black market should just be only accessible when your transponders are off. This is a bit extreme compared to the graduated access solutions proposed, but I think it'll be quicker to implement and that is important when starsector is at such a late stage.

For free-ports, which do not have patrols that intercept no-transponder fleets, there should be no black market or main market. There should just be a singular black market but the black markets should just have greatly reduced prices (to reflect the cost imposed on goods that have to smuggle into a primary market). Pirate markets should only have black markets, but prices that are further reduced.

[Locklave]

I completely agree with you, I think the penalties for using the black market are nowhere near enough to balance the quality of goods and the prices of stuff on the black market.

Might I suggest the problem is the other way around.

That the black market being too good isn't the problem, the problem is the tariffs on the normal market are so massive it makes using the normal market a non choice choice. The normal market becomes the secondary market. The black market should be used to skim extra profit and sell things that are illegal, instead everyone uses it to buy supplies and fuel. Or at least that's what I do. I only use the normal market if the black market is sold out.

The normal market needs to be less punishing.

Choice
a) Normal market, less profit. The kick in the balls choice.
b) Black market, more profit. The no kick in the balls choice.

It's a false choice and the legit trade choice is the vastly more punishing one for w/e reason.