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Author Topic: Mortars vs Maulers  (Read 7222 times)

Scorpixel

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Re: Mortars vs Maulers
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2020, 05:09:33 PM »

Here's a pic for you mortar enthustiasts out there  ;D
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If you're interested about the mods:
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The ship is from Hazard Mining Incorporated (https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=13236.0), the 4 Spike Drivers are from Roider union (https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=9547.0), Some extra hullmods are from More HullMods (https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=18474.0) and another hullmod is from the Ship/Weapon Pack(https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=11018.0)
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Just to be sure, you're human right? Would your skin happen to be in the green spectrum?
More seriously, is that mod balanced? The thing looks like a floating scrapyard yet the stats and amount of turrets on it say that it's a very angry pile of junk.
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Arcagnello

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Re: Mortars vs Maulers
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2020, 06:22:36 PM »

Here's a pic for you mortar enthustiasts out there  ;D
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If you're interested about the mods:
Spoiler
The ship is from Hazard Mining Incorporated (https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=13236.0), the 4 Spike Drivers are from Roider union (https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=9547.0), Some extra hullmods are from More HullMods (https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=18474.0) and another hullmod is from the Ship/Weapon Pack(https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=11018.0)
[close]
Just to be sure, you're human right? Would your skin happen to be in the green spectrum?
More seriously, is that mod balanced? The thing looks like a floating scrapyard yet the stats and amount of turrets on it say that it's a very angry pile of junk.
I am in fact, not green. That is what a human would say after all  ;)

Regarding HMI, it is actually very balanced. The mod recently split into 3 separate ones since it also adds A LOT more stuff than ships looking like very angry piles of junk.

Specifically, Junker Ships (the ones that gain more OP the more D-mods they have, up to 4) including the one in the screenshot are very good for mostly one thing, wich is the incredible ease of dragging them around the sector due to their very attractive maintenance cost. 

Getting them to be combat ready is another pair of gloves tough. None of them come with shields (installing one will also nullify the effect of built in hullmods), the ship's fighters (if any) will deal less and less and recieve more and more damage the more D-mods the ship has and...ah...well...

you do see the shape of them right? You'll have to either hyperspecialize the small ones to even be useful and be forced to turn the bigger ones into jacks of all trades unless you want them converted into swiss cheese by either bombers, missiles or long range pummeling.

As an example, that Roach King on the screenshot took around one hour and a half to figure out how to properly customize for what I needed, as in something that just smashes itself into the enemy to deal as much damage as possible no matter what happens to it. All offensive weapons on it have a maximum range of 600 units before ITU, the ship also has no shields or Blast Doors so it will just destroy your crew compartments every battle (I've got two Starliners in my fleet, so go figure lmao) and just mention a Radiant with 5 tach Lances and I will throw myself out of the chair I'm currently sitting on and quietly start sobbing on the floor in a fetal position.

That is the price I'm willing to pay for having 20k hull hit points and enough front facing dakka to make an Onslaught blush! Now if someone did a mod replacing the burn drive SFX with a "Waaaaagh" from WH40k, it would truly achieve perfection.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2020, 06:33:26 PM by Arcagnello »
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Arcagnello

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Re: Mortars vs Maulers
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2020, 05:30:32 AM »

Just mention a Radiant with 5 tach Lances and I will throw myself out of the chair I'm currently sitting on and quietly start sobbing on the floor in a fetal position.

I went ahead and said that just for this to happen in my campaign the day later.

Oh no.
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Oh no.no, no no. My slightly (ab)used, shieldless hulls are not ready for this.
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Somebody call Space 911 and report a soon to occur case of solar system abuse
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FooF

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Re: Mortars vs Maulers
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2020, 07:50:15 AM »

This was brought up in the Patch Notes discussion about having an equivalent HE weapon to the Heavy AC. We have the cheap but efficient Heavy Mortar that pairs with the Arbalest. We have the long-range Heavy Mauler that pairs with the HVD, and we have the short-range DPS monster in the Assault CG that pairs with the Heavy MG.

As it is, I find the Mortar to be preferable in most circumstances. I really only use the Mauler paired with Gravitons or HVDs though I might sometimes put a Mauler on Capitals that have other Large weapons. Mortars tend to not get used at all when paired with other longer-ranged weapons.

In the "weapons that make sense on paper" category, I think there's room for two more HE weapons, the "Light Mauler" (roughly equivalent to the Railgun) and the 800 range Medium HE Ballistic somewhere between the Heavy Mauler and Mortar (name pending but I'll just call it the Hypothetical HE weapon, or HHE)

Here's the problem, as I see it: The Heavy Mortar is already a general-purpose weapon as-is and the Heavy Mauler was previously OP (as Megas pointed out). In order to create the niche for the HHE, you have to make the Mortar less general-purpose and the Mauler more elite. You have to push each more to the extreme end so that the middle-of-the-road option doesn't overlap. In order to make the Mortar less general-purpose, I think you need to lower its rate of fire. Range, accuracy, and damage/shot would stay the same but the RoF could get tuned down so that it's in the 180-200 range of DPS instead of 220. In order to make the Mauler more elite, you increase its damage per shot to something like 225. That's not a huge increase but it gives more room for a HHE that does something like 150 damage per shot without it encroaching on the Mauler's territory.

So, the HHE would need something like 150 damage/shot, at 800 range, every .75 seconds (200 DPS) at 10 OP. The Mortar would still be more efficient, the Mauler would still hit harder against armor and at range, while the Assault CG would still have its raw DPS. However, you'd have to nerf the Mortar and buff the Mauler to do so. As it is, an HHE with the proposed stats in the existing Mauler/Mortar world would lose to the Mortar in most respects but outshine the Mauler.

As far as the "Light Mauler" goes, it would be a 700 range, roughly 150 DPS weapon that shoots 75 damage/shot twice a second for 7 OP. Relative to the Heavy Mortar, its more accurate but does less damage/shot and has overall less DPS. The LAG would remain more of a general purpose weapon much better suited to hit fighters and small targets and still has a slight advantage in overall DPS while the Light Mauler would have a faster projectile and tend to me more accurate at range.

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Megas

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Re: Mortars vs Maulers
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2020, 09:48:06 AM »

Mortar is the only general-purpose HE option - a low-end option at that (sub-800 range, slow speed).  Meanwhile, there are three general-purpose kinetics for medium mount (plus Railgun from light mount, at times).  It is frustrating trying to pair Mortar with Heavy AC and Heavy Needler, and Mauler is too weak for medium-range brawling.
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Retry

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Re: Mortars vs Maulers
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2020, 09:47:42 AM »

As far as the "Light Mauler" goes, it would be a 700 range, roughly 150 DPS weapon that shoots 75 damage/shot twice a second for 7 OP. Relative to the Heavy Mortar, its more accurate but does less damage/shot and has overall less DPS. The LAG would remain more of a general purpose weapon much better suited to hit fighters and small targets and still has a slight advantage in overall DPS while the Light Mauler would have a faster projectile and tend to me more accurate at range.
Unless the "Light Mauler" has most of its soft stats seriously hammered, such a weapon would functionally be superior to the LAG as well.  120 rpm is good enough for fighters and small targets as long as it's not something like a missile, and the LAG's theoretical DPS advantage would only show itself vs shields.  The much greater armor penetration of the Light Mauler would effectively cancel out the marginal DPS bonus against both armor and hull against most likely targets.

Maybe something like 100-120 damage/shot and a 1-second reload, with good soft stats like accuracy and projectile speed would work better for a Light Mauler.
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bobucles

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Re: Mortars vs Maulers
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2020, 07:20:08 AM »

Mortars deal respectable damage, but the most important parts of combat are usually determined in the shield duel. High explosive weapons can't win that battle, and if you don't break the shields you lose. It's more important crack open the shield with Kinetic weapons. Mortars are the follow up.

Arcagnello

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Re: Mortars vs Maulers
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2020, 08:18:11 AM »

Mortars deal respectable damage, but the most important parts of combat are usually determined in the shield duel. High explosive weapons can't win that battle, and if you don't break the shields you lose. It's more important crack open the shield with Kinetic weapons. Mortars are the follow up.

Yes and no. Both mortars are so flux efficient it's almost as if they deal energy damage to shields considering their DPS and the ease at wich they can be continuously fired. That said, you should never really spam them unless you've got a few REALLY good kinetic answer to the shield problem like needlers of any type or Sabots.

As for the second point of your aswer, there already are quite a lot of mod factions intorducing ways to either disable the shield entirely for bonuses elsewhere or cruiser and above sized mod ships already coming without a shield and backing that up with disgusting amounts of firepower, and Vanilla is soon going to also recieve the option of disabling shields via the "Shield Shunt" hullmod Alex talked about in the 0.95a patch notes.

We might need to better invest in HE weaponry in the next Starsector installment. I can tell you from experience that facing enemy ships with no shield and disgusting amounts of armor/firepower can be much more of a nightmare than shield-heavy enemies (like [redacted]) ever could, also because a lot of armor-improving hullmods like Heavy Armor are also getting buffed.
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Megas

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Re: Mortars vs Maulers
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2020, 09:08:27 AM »

Mortars deal respectable damage, but the most important parts of combat are usually determined in the shield duel. High explosive weapons can't win that battle, and if you don't break the shields you lose. It's more important crack open the shield with Kinetic weapons. Mortars are the follow up.
Some HE is important.  Without it, enemies shield-flicker more and tank kinetics on armor (and maybe dissipate hard flux while at it).

Also, if Ordos and Radiants are not fought (for more alpha cores), the ultimate endgame enemy are the immortal zombie Pirates and Pathers, who have no or poor shields (unless player foolishly sells Paragon blueprints and the like at Black Market).

Quote
We might need to better invest in HE weaponry in the next Starsector installment.
If so, I would like to see an HE equivalent of Heavy Autocannon/Needler to compliment 800 range weapons, or Heavy Mauler gain something.  Current Heavy Mauler is too weak for anything other than complimenting other 1000 range sniper weapons.
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Scorpixel

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Re: Mortars vs Maulers
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2020, 10:09:58 AM »

Quote
We might need to better invest in HE weaponry in the next Starsector installment.
If so, I would like to see an HE equivalent of Heavy Autocannon/Needler to compliment 800 range weapons, or Heavy Mauler gain something.  Current Heavy Mauler is too weak for anything other than complimenting other 1000 range sniper weapons.
Was going to write about many mod weapons, but realized once in the codex that's it just wouldn't end.
Honestly, mods are the best answer to it. The base game does not need to fill every niche in existence and get flooded with infinite sidegrades of "it's the heavy mortar/HVD but-".
Every Vanilla weapon will be present for everyone, so it's important for them to be carefully balanced (coughsabotcough), if base factions had stuff like-(was again going to give examples, and again deleted a thesis worth of writing).

The base game can't fulfil every desire, as it could hamper the experience of others (many new players already struggle with the vanilla arsenal and autofit, even more could make the game look too convoluted for newcomers). The modders of Starsector are divine regarding everything available, unquestionably worth the title of expansions.

« Last Edit: November 10, 2020, 10:12:35 AM by Scorpixel »
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Megas

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Re: Mortars vs Maulers
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2020, 12:14:28 PM »

Mods are not the answer.  I do not care about mods adding new weapons because I do not (buy and) play Starsector for mods.

If new weapons are not a good idea, then buff Heavy Mauler back to its 200 DPS incarnation, when it was truly an elite versatile weapon worth its cost (or slightly underpriced).  That or give it perfect accuracy and a slight DPS increase.  Right now, Mauler is just an HE HVD without the accuracy, and HVD is sub-par at brawling at the shorter ranges of other kinetics.

I prefer Heavy Mortar not to be buffed to Heavy Autocannon level (10 OP, 800 range) if it means it cannot be found at Open Market anymore.  Better to have a new higher-tier weapon.  Heavy Mortar is low-end like Arbalest or single Flak Cannon (even if it is good low-tier like Hellbore or modern Light Mortar).

I just want any medium ballistic HE more elite than low-end (i.e., mid-grade like Heavy Autocannon or high-end like Heavy Needler) and compliments Heavy Autocannon or Heavy Needler well.  Could have 800 range, faster (and easier-to-use), better accuracy, and less efficiency.  Just having Heavy Mortar as the only HE option for medium-range brawling (when it does not compliment 800 range kinetics), with nothing better in medium class, is sad.

At least there are upgrades over Hellbore in heavy mounts (HAG and Mjolnir), even if Conquest is the only ship that can comfortably use those high-end ballistics.
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Arcagnello

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Re: Mortars vs Maulers
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2020, 04:59:08 PM »

Mods are not the answer.  I do not care about mods adding new weapons because I do not (buy and) play Starsector for mods.

If new weapons are not a good idea, then buff Heavy Mauler back to its 200 DPS incarnation, when it was truly an elite versatile weapon worth its cost (or slightly underpriced).  That or give it perfect accuracy and a slight DPS increase.  Right now, Mauler is just an HE HVD without the accuracy, and HVD is sub-par at brawling at the shorter ranges of other kinetics.

I prefer Heavy Mortar not to be buffed to Heavy Autocannon level (10 OP, 800 range) if it means it cannot be found at Open Market anymore.  Better to have a new higher-tier weapon.  Heavy Mortar is low-end like Arbalest or single Flak Cannon (even if it is good low-tier like Hellbore or modern Light Mortar).

I just want any medium ballistic HE more elite than low-end (i.e., mid-grade like Heavy Autocannon or high-end like Heavy Needler) and compliments Heavy Autocannon or Heavy Needler well.  Could have 800 range, faster (and easier-to-use), better accuracy, and less efficiency.  Just having Heavy Mortar as the only HE option for medium-range brawling (when it does not compliment 800 range kinetics), with nothing better in medium class, is sad.

At least there are upgrades over Hellbore in heavy mounts (HAG and Mjolnir), even if Conquest is the only ship that can comfortably use those high-end ballistics.

I'll have to wholeheartedly agree on that. I barely use the Heavy Mauler myself for the reasons you just posted. It's too expensive for the damage it does and the accuracy it provides. Ships that could logically afford a Heavy Mauler to accompany their array of HVDs (looking at you Falcons and Eagles) are currently better off just going full HVD instead. For just one more OP you get a weapon that's a lot more accurate, does significant secondary EMP damage and even has enough alpha damage to strip armor by itself in a prolonged duel against all but the most armored ships that more or less require specialized HE weapons to crack open.

Speaking of specialized HE weapons, I am also in agreement with you regarding the lack of true high end HE weapons.

The advanced light mortar is a joke and a very expensive one at that. The Heavy Mauler has the above issues and I also would not mind it getting buffed and costing 15 OP or something instead just to be used more. The Hellbore Cannon is...well...the Hellbore cannon.

Sometimes you can tell Vanilla is lacking something in the weapon department when many if not all weapon packs/faction mods try and fill that gap. There are so, so many large mod HE weapons. They range from high efficiency close range monsters to long range flux inefficient systems designed to pair off with Gauss Cannons, to very Advanced (and expensive) weapon systems with secondary effects to even Uber-Roided up versions of the Hellbore Cannon.

The list goes on and on and I don't really think it can only be explained away by my own, theoretical confirmative bias.

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Harmful Mechanic

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Re: Mortars vs Maulers
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2020, 05:20:14 PM »

A lot of 'true high end HE weapons' are recipes for making frigates utterly nonviable. That makes them kind of a questionable balance proposition; some of the more creative midrange HE weapons in mods (the Blackrock Sunfire PDE is one of my favorites) are designed the way they are to keep them from becoming vicious frigate-murderers.
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Alex

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Re: Mortars vs Maulers
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2020, 05:37:45 PM »

Another point to consider here is that 1) most ships have the option to mount some kind of missile weapon, and 2) many missile weapons fill the anti-armor role, moreso than e.g. the anti-shield role. So there's ... not really something I'd call a "gap" here, since there are some good options - but coverage is somewhat lighter because there's overlap elsewhere. The more of a wide range of HE options you provide for a ballistic slot, the more that devalues some of the missile options.

(And HE pairing with a Gauss... I mean, the Gauss doesn't need anti-armor help to begin with, and it's also kind of meant to be in its own class range-wise, so...)


A lot of 'true high end HE weapons' are recipes for making frigates utterly nonviable. That makes them kind of a questionable balance proposition; some of the more creative midrange HE weapons in mods (the Blackrock Sunfire PDE is one of my favorites) are designed the way they are to keep them from becoming vicious frigate-murderers.

And, yeah, that! The old Heavy Mauler was a bit too good at that, too, but something like the Heavy AC but HE would also be brutal.
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Arcagnello

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Re: Mortars vs Maulers
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2020, 05:54:37 PM »

I've personally seen kinetic weapons to be much more dangerous frigade/destroyer deleters than HE. Gauss cannon with advanced turret gyros and Heavy autocannon with a good enough officer improving tracking/projectile speed are more ruthless than most other vanilla weapons when it comes to frigade yeetus deletus.

Ship AI will either block kinetic with the shield or eat it with the hull, but get a high enough damage kinetic shell and the enemy frigade will have no choice but to shield up and get overloaded as a result. I don't know how most people design the absolute best fleet design, but kinetic damage overload is one of the best for me.

The AI will rarely start hull-tanking before kinetics have already pushed it into near-overload territories (meaning it will also severely hamper it's ability to fire back), and as Alex said some kinetic weapons have such a high base damage they almost so not need HE/energy damage getting rid of armor for them at all.

As for mod HE weapons that could pair with Gauss, I can't actually remember any of them going above the 1100 unit range and all the ones that go even just above the Hellbore's range usually come with a big flux drain, OP pricetag and rather bad flux to damage ratios. Their main function is usually revolving around exploiting enemies swarmed by fighters or already fluxed into a metaphorical corner and trying to back up.

I can also work my head around people actually using missiles for HE damage (I applaud the effort really), but have you heard about our Lord and Savior Ludd carrying a Squall MLRS on one hand and Sabot systems on the other?
« Last Edit: November 10, 2020, 05:58:42 PM by Arcagnello »
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