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Author Topic: Grinding Battlestation Defence battles  (Read 2735 times)

Arcagnello

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Grinding Battlestation Defence battles
« on: October 14, 2020, 11:19:12 AM »

Hello!


I've just went thru a very long series of engagements that involved my fleet and an allied Battlestation fending off multiple rather large fleets (most of them with 800-1000 Fleet Points worth of combat focused ships) and I wanted to share 1) My feedback on the battle mode, enemy/allied AI behaviour 2)The method I'm using to deal with the mode


Absolute, gear grinding boredom

I am going to be honest here. I hate siege battles while I'm on the defensive side. If I wanted to play overdramatic tower defence I'd play GemCraft: Frostborn Wrath (It's an amazing game by the way, go check it out!).

It's incredible how a game as amazingly engaging and tactically deep as Starsector can turn into a shallow, dirty slog thru mud that is defending your battlestation from a lemming rush.

The enemy spawns in the form of an endless stream of ships that behave the same damn way regardless of class and proceeds to almost exclusively recklessly rush INTO the battlestation, sometimes even litterally.

Carriers don't stay back and actually do their job but instead prefer to suicide into the station.

Frigades and Destroyers are focused on also suiciding intot he battlestation instead of encircling it and dealing with your (usually weaker and vulnerable compared to the battlestation) forces.

Cruisers and Capitals effectively are the only thing that poses a threat to the battlestation as they have better long range firepower and enough armor/hull hitpoints to actually get close enough to start using it, and even then they are so damn boneheaded in shooting the battlestation they become so extremely exploitable that shooting them to the side with your mobile forces stops being actually difficult to achieve and becomes the norm.

And it just goes on. Over and over, dozens after dozens of ships just keep pouring thru that spawn point and faceplanting into the battlestation that it just becomes a matter of planning a fully AI controlled fleet tactic and doing somewhere else in the house while it goes on; wich leads to the second point of this discussion:

The (almost) AI proof method to grind Defending Siege battles

The method I'm using will probably take more time to explain and showcase than what it would take you to figure it out and put it into action, but I'm already here writing while my fleet currently grinds thru another siege battle so I may aswell keep writing  ::)

I've had to adopt a fleet composition I actually never used before to combat [redacted] getting massive ECM buffs (and Probe drones getting 2x weapon range) thanks to the Ruthless sector mod ( https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=15279.0 ):

1) I've got two pairs of identical of capitals I deploy based on the situation. The first type of capital is focused around staying power and has very flux efficient, medium to short range weapons to put out as much DPS as possible to enemy ships, fighters, bombers and missiles to drive the enemy away from the battlestation. very useful against aggressive factions for one simple reason: it just needs to be there and take it like a good chonker.
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This would translate in using things like two Defense-focused Legions or Onslaughts in Vanilla. I've also found the Apogee to be really and I mean really tanky for just 20FP.


The second capital I use is less of a Sledgehammer and more like a scalpel. It stays far away from the enemy and puts accurate, kinetic damage down range to wither and soften the enemy before it gets to the battlestation. This one is also the only ship in my fleet able to deal with a certain mod introduced [Redacted] flagship thanks to its disgusting ultra long range DPS. Oh and 5 Tach lance Radiants. Those are nasty too.
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Vanilla capitals like Conquest, Odyssey or even cruisers like double Gauss Cannon Dominators will succeed in achieving the same task.

You should not have more than one of these on each side (more about that later), two/three on each side if it's cruisers/destroyers.

2)The second pivotal unit in my setup is focused around fire support and boosting that ECM rating thru the roof. There is a point in your fleet composition where you have so many direct fire ships on each side of the battlestation they actually hamper eachother and the battlestation's ability to fire at the enemy. This role solves that as it provides fire support, reduces enemy weapon range and does not get in the way of your frontline ships.
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You can achieve the same result in vanilla using Gryphons with Squall/Pilum and every single utility modspec you can cram into them.

3)The third and final part of the defensive fleet is made of carriers. It should not be the prevalent force in your fleet (unless it's bomber focused) as the carrier AI has the annoying habit of escorting the battlestation instead of doing its job. I decided not to use long range interceptors as they do not possess a lot of firepower/PD ability for the Ordinance Points they cost. Short range interceptors mixed in with heavy fighters usually ends up being the best option for both bruteforcing the enemy off the battlestation and shielding it from fighters and missiles.
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You can achieve the same result in Vanilla using...well, any carrier really. Try not to spam too many Spark-vomiting Drovers mmkay?  ;)

Positioning

I've tried many setups but decided to show the easiest one I found that works. As soon as the battle starts summon your frontline units first, then the carriers and then the support ships. Divide the frontline group into two indentical groups and give them a Rally Taskforce order two thirds of a square to the right and to the left and one third of of a square down, like this:
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This precise setup will force the frontline ships close to the Battlestation and they won't stray either too far out or in the way of its firepower:
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If your frontliners are damage focused, keep them in that position or even give them a rally point further down. If they're more tank focused put them parallel or even a third forward to the battlestation.

Both carriers and support ships will hold position one (or multiple) rally points directly behind the battlestation and at least 2 thirds of a block away from it unless you want them to get besides the station if enemies come too close. You can also try and experiment with setting your support ship more to the side and not directly behind the battlestation to attack the enemy at an angle. Your call.

All positions I experimented with look like this on the tactical map.
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Just pick a set of positions you like and have your fleet grind the enemy to victory while you do something more productive like writing an overly detailed thread like this! Huzzah!

Now, if you excuse me, I have to go sat bomb those Hat Fetishists Hegemony scoundrels before they force me to defend another one of their silly little raids on my Alpha core worlds. I planned on writing a few ideas on how to improve siege battles in general but the OP would be three times longer than it is now.

Maybe later.

Procastination is a Sabot Astral. Always there and ready to screw you up no matter what you do.

Edit: Typos. There will be more.








« Last Edit: October 14, 2020, 11:29:14 AM by Arcagnello »
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pairedeciseaux

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Re: Grinding Battlestation Defence battles
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2020, 02:44:42 PM »

If I wanted to play overdramatic tower defence I'd play GemCraft: Frostborn Wrath (It's an amazing game by the way, go check it out!).

Haven't played Frostborn Wrath, but I've enjoyed GemCraft Lost Chapter: Labyrinth.

It's incredible how a game as amazingly engaging and tactically deep as Starsector can turn into a shallow, dirty slog thru mud that is defending your battlestation from a lemming rush.

Strange, I've experienced a few epic station defence battles, and I found them interesting. Are you sure those strange behaviours you've seen are not mod-related?

Other than that, maybe I misunderstand, but using high ECM the way you did means enemy ships have no other choice than come close to the station to fire their guns at it.

Positioning

Yeah, positioning is key. I can see here the tower defense veteran putting his experience to good use.  :D

What I do is even simpler. One or two defense orders positioned to the side of the station. The idea being you don't want the station to be flanked. If your ships protects the station's side, the station will be under ennemy fire pressure only for 1/3rd or 1/4rth of it's rotation cycle.

I like Legions with Talons for this job because they can deal with both large threats and smaller ships. Quickly dealing with smaller ships is important because they act as distraction for your station, and you want to avoid that.

Another effective tactic is to use a player-piloted Conquest (or smaller ships) to quickly destroy (or push back) enemy ships in this area or that area, depending on threats and how the station / fleet are dealing with them. While still prioritising the protection of the station's sides. Conquest is especially interesting for this because if using Locusts it can intercept enemy's bomber runs.
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MajorTheRed

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Re: Grinding Battlestation Defence battles
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2020, 02:53:36 PM »

I agree with most of your feedback. AI is hopeless both in attack (afraid to approach, then turning into suicide berserk...) and defense (staying behind the station and camping). The berserk method of the Ai is actually effective if don't mind the insane losses (even pirates are able to crush a battlestation with enough bodies to bury it).

Personnally, I had great fun in the past using an asymmetric Conquest, parking it next to the station and going full broadside against anything stupid enough to come close. Use here and there your Hammer barrage and you good for a moment.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Grinding Battlestation Defence battles
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2020, 03:22:21 PM »

I don't think the strategy of setting up on either side of the station is exploiting the AI, I think it's just the best strategy. Your goal as a supporting fleet is to prevent the enemy from flanking the station since that is the most practical way to beat it. Even if the AI was a bit smarter about attacking, you would still do the same thing on defense.

I agree that it would be nice if the attacking carriers hung back more and smaller ships focused on engaging ships away from the station, but I don't know how easy it is to achieve that, and I don't think it would really make the battle less of a grind. It might even take longer which doesn't seem like a good outcome.
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Arcagnello

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Re: Grinding Battlestation Defence battles
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2020, 02:28:28 AM »

Haven't played Frostborn Wrath, but I've enjoyed GemCraft Lost Chapter: Labyrinth.

There is another chapter of the Gemcraft series in-between Labirinth and Frostborn but can't quite recall how it was named, it's available for a pity in the steam store and it's 100% worth it. You'll end up with a grade in mathematics depending on how hardcore you want to be at that game :P

Strange, I've experienced a few epic station defence battles, and I found them interesting. Are you sure those strange behaviours you've seen are not mod-related?

I have actually fought off [Redacted] Raids when I still did not have ECM rating meaning I played a battle station defence with -35% weapon range and 5 tach lance Radiants were still closing in at spitting distance of the station. It's not a mod issue, it just really feels like the AI is given a kill order on the station on all units and will only shoot at your ships if they're considerably closer to them than the allied station.

Other than that, maybe I misunderstand, but using high ECM the way you did means enemy ships have no other choice than come close to the station to fire their guns at it.

I wish that was the case. ECM is mostly there to make the job easier for my frontlines since both the close range and ultra long range variants I have have no shield but a lot of flux dissipation and firepower. The battle cruiser in particular has more frontal firepower than a Conquest (1 large turret, 2 large hardpoints and 6 medium turrets I use for point defence) and they're both 40FP

Yeah, positioning is key. I can see here the tower defense veteran putting his experience to good use.  :D

What I do is even simpler. One or two defense orders positioned to the side of the station. The idea being you don't want the station to be flanked. If your ships protects the station's side, the station will be under ennemy fire pressure only for 1/3rd or 1/4rth of it's rotation cycle.


I usually divide my attacking forces into two groups on either side of an enemy station and only then order them to engage it to make sure they're spread out enough that they won't block each other and keep applying pressure to the station to make sure it keeps the shields up.

I have found that while most battlestations have disgusting firepower, once their flux level is topped they usually won't overload but will instead get throttled and only fire a very small portion of their otherwise devastating array of weapons, usually the weapons with the lowest flux per shot.

I like Legions with Talons for this job because they can deal with both large threats and smaller ships. Quickly dealing with smaller ships is important because they act as distraction for your station, and you want to avoid that.

Another effective tactic is to use a player-piloted Conquest (or smaller ships) to quickly destroy (or push back) enemy ships in this area or that area, depending on threats and how the station / fleet are dealing with them. While still prioritising the protection of the station's sides. Conquest is especially interesting for this because if using Locusts it can intercept enemy's bomber runs.


Conquest is bae along with the Odyssey. They're by far the best AI piloted ships in the game with some setups and both are able to kill most things in the game by themselves. Gauss Conquest brutalizes 4tach lance Paragon without taking damage, Autopulse Odyssey with Hurricane MIRV and Sabots tears Radiants a new one.

I have a rather conflicting relationship with the Legion actually. I rarely pilot those kind of ships since I find them rather boring but my AI setups never used Talons actually. I am playing with mods adding a ton on weapons and there are two main Legion builds I use. The First one has Large PD mounts and Hypervelocity Drivers and uses escort fighters for both added DPS and back point defence, the second one has double Squall and Piranhas.

I have tried the bait tactic you speak of in sieges but I always end up getting gangbanged by newly spawned carriers, while the AI may be as dumb as a rock but has a much better situational awareness than any human could possibly have.
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SCC

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Re: Grinding Battlestation Defence battles
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2020, 02:46:34 AM »

Imagine needing more than a single ship to defend your battle station.
This post was made by the combat skills gang.

On a more serious note, probably the most important thing to do in station defence is to let the station rest. With current rules, this is easy; just place one ship to the left of the station and one ship to the right of the station. It would be interesting to see what would happen, if enemies could deploy from the sides, too.

Arcagnello

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Re: Grinding Battlestation Defence battles
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2020, 03:37:58 AM »

I don't think the strategy of setting up on either side of the station is exploiting the AI, I think it's just the best strategy. Your goal as a supporting fleet is to prevent the enemy from flanking the station since that is the most practical way to beat it. Even if the AI was a bit smarter about attacking, you would still do the same thing on defense.

I agree that it would be nice if the attacking carriers hung back more and smaller ships focused on engaging ships away from the station, but I don't know how easy it is to achieve that, and I don't think it would really make the battle less of a grind. It might even take longer which doesn't seem like a good outcome.

I would ready like someone to make a mod modifying AI orders during sieges. 3 simple orders to different types of ship would yield amazing results regarding siege proficiency:

1) give a Defend Rally point to every incoming cruiser/capital directly in front and one square away from the battlestation to prevent them suiciding in and properly disengage (letting other ships thru) to vent when it's needed.

2)give two Defend Rally points 1-1,5 squares to the sides of the enemy battlestation to every destroyer and frigade to both apply defensive fire and cover the main attack force

3)Give two Defend rally points to the sides of the capital/cruiser ones and a bit back to all carriers for them to stay safe but also draw some fire away from the capital/cruiser group

It could probably benefit even hyperaggressive factions like Luddic Path if the positions would be set a bit closer in their case.

Imagine needing more than a single ship to defend your battle station.
This post was made by the combat skills gang.

On a more serious note, probably the most important thing to do in station defence is to let the station rest. With current rules, this is easy; just place one ship to the left of the station and one ship to the right of the station. It would be interesting to see what would happen, if enemies could deploy from the sides, too.

The AI could really benefit from three spawn points instead of one, just like disengage battles. I would slant their spawn points a bit towards their side of the battlefield tough.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2020, 03:42:03 AM by Arcagnello »
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Arranging holidays in an embrace with the Starsector is priceless.
The therapist removed my F5 key.