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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Gladius  (Read 6075 times)

Arcagnello

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Re: Gladius
« Reply #45 on: October 07, 2020, 03:13:41 AM »

I actually used warthogs combined with a mod heavy fighter that basically is an anti-shield version of the Warthog (it even has the same 12OP cost) but only on a mod carrier that litterally applies a temporal shield to both itself and its fighters (It's a 14FP carrier Called Vortex from the Ship/Weapon pack for anyone interested) so they could actually reach their intended target.

They do still feel subpar tough, since I ended up switching both fighter setup and carrier for Assault Corvettes (Battleaxe to be precise) in a later part of that campaign. I don't even think they would actually become overpowered if they actually gave the Warthog its third mortar back, or maybe a machinegun for minimal shield damage and anti-fighter/missile capability?

I also just read all the testing that was done on the Gladius (I tip my invisible hat to you by the way, amazing job) and giving it better flux management does not really look like an overcompensation to how pathetic it actually is right now.

 
I faintly remeber an unrestricted Gladius from older versions, IIRC they made frigates completely obsolete (i.e. killed them instantly) when more than one wing was involved.

You could try that if you want.

Well, they would make frigades obsolete like almost everything that fits into a hangar bay slot. The number of Fighters/bombers that actually are not all that great against frigades probably is not even enough to take all fingers in one hand. It's more of a problem regarding how the AI piloting said frigades treats the ship the same way it would treat an Onslaught and has no scope of the actual danger of things it's cruising at max speed towards.
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Retry

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Re: Gladius
« Reply #46 on: October 08, 2020, 06:00:10 PM »

Thanks for running these tests, the numbers are quite interesting. The NF variant has a much bigger improvement than I expected!

The biggest surprise in the numbers for me is the 2x Talons being so poor, and in your later tests the Warthogs being able to catch up at all!
Having more than ~8% of an IR Pulse Laser past the first second can do wonders for its performance.  The test has certainly shaped how I feel the Gladius "should" be.

In the case of 2x Talons, I believe that is because most of the Talon's (anti-armor) firepower is in the first burst of SRMs... which impact the Lasher's front-facing shields, leaving the Talon group with only Vulcans for a while.  The Talons basically had to be lucky enough to survive the Lasher's PD fire, reload and fire its Swarmers while the Talon was at the Lasher's rear arc, and the missiles had to survive/avoid Vulcan PD fire long enough to hit the Lasher's armor.  The process had to be repeated until the armor broke, and then the Talons still had to hose the backside with its Vulcans to finally end it.  Compared to most other fighter groups which had a pretty clear path to mopping up the singular lasher, the Talons had a slow and arduous process.

As for the Warthog, the test Lasher didn't make a honest effort to escape, for whatever reason (I guess that Condor looked like too juicy a prey for that greedy Lasher to run away from?).  I'd imagine in the campaign, a Warthog-equipped carrier would have much greater difficulty in actually catching a frigate that didn't want to be caught.

I actually used warthogs combined with a mod heavy fighter that basically is an anti-shield version of the Warthog (it even has the same 12OP cost) but only on a mod carrier that litterally applies a temporal shield to both itself and its fighters (It's a 14FP carrier Called Vortex from the Ship/Weapon pack for anyone interested) so they could actually reach their intended target.

They do still feel subpar tough, since I ended up switching both fighter setup and carrier for Assault Corvettes (Battleaxe to be precise) in a later part of that campaign. I don't even think they would actually become overpowered if they actually gave the Warthog its third mortar back, or maybe a machinegun for minimal shield damage and anti-fighter/missile capability?
A third mortar by itself would do almost nothing for the Warthog, as its limiting factor is its poor flux stats (only enough to operate 1 mortar).  The machine, as of today, has 50 dissipation and 200 capacity (used to be 80/400).
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Arcagnello

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Re: Gladius
« Reply #47 on: October 08, 2020, 06:18:00 PM »

Wow. I am actually surprised I did not notice it basically gets bottlenecked by both its low speed AND pathetic flux dissipation. No wonder I don't see it virtually anywhere, even the AI setups have ditched it  :-[

I'll just stick to my chonky Immortals since they may as well cost 26OP but they just won't die and at least will fire the entirety of their weapons as much as they like once they finally manage to reach their target.

Anyway, what do you think could be changed on the warthog? The easiest solution to me would be to just scale it's OP cost down to 8 or even lower, but I could really see it staying at 12 FP but with better flux dissipation, HP and armor.
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Gladius
« Reply #48 on: October 08, 2020, 06:37:29 PM »

They need a new weapon. Ultra-low velocity projectiles are just a horrible fit for strikecraft.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Gladius
« Reply #49 on: October 08, 2020, 07:25:34 PM »

Warthogs were massively over-performing because of the triple-hit or whatever bug, but even though that got fixed they were hit with the mega-nerf hammer. They would probably be fine if they were restored to their pre-nerf stats.
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SaberCherry

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Re: Gladius
« Reply #50 on: October 08, 2020, 08:38:19 PM »

They need a new weapon. Ultra-low velocity projectiles are just a horrible fit for strikecraft.
Yep, they are brokenly bad due to the weapon and speed.  They can't hit anything, even if they could catch anything, which they can't.

It would be useful if fighters could correctly calculate trajectories (ignoring second derivatives) and actually hit something they shoot at, assuming all velocities are constant.  But right now they can't even do that, and Warthogs can't even catch up to their target in the first place.  So in many cases the only useful fighter weapons are beams or long-range guided missiles.
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Goumindong

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Re: Gladius
« Reply #51 on: October 09, 2020, 02:34:27 AM »

Give the Warthog burn drive as a fighter system instead of the flare launcher and give it a hidden recoil boost on its weapons. It could actually have a slower orbit speed as it’s not good at dealing with its own transverse velocity when hitting

Does anyone know if the flare launcher and flare launcher single are different(does the flare single run out of ammo)
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Serenitis

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Re: Gladius
« Reply #52 on: October 09, 2020, 02:51:19 AM »

Does anyone know if the flare launcher and flare launcher single are different(does the flare single run out of ammo)

They're both separate systems, and both of them regenerate charges.
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Retry

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Re: Gladius
« Reply #53 on: October 10, 2020, 12:36:01 PM »

Anyway, what do you think could be changed on the warthog? The easiest solution to me would be to just scale it's OP cost down to 8 or even lower, but I could really see it staying at 12 FP but with better flux dissipation, HP and armor.
Generally speaking, I like the idea of the Warthog being an "A-10 in space" analogue.  Instead of lowering its OP cost, I think I'd reverse the flux changes (back to 80/400) and return the third mortar.  Sustained firepower would still be halved after a while but half is now about 1.5 mortars instead of 1 mortar.

(I originally said I was going to stick with vanilla stats in my upcoming mod, but I recently choked and gave my Warthog XIV a few vents + capacitor.  I just really wanted it to upgrade to a Heavy Mortar and it just wasn't happening otherwise)

I've heard that someone's tested out fighters with burn drives before, but the AI fighters weren't so great at using them.  Don't quote me on that, though.
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c plus one

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Re: Gladius
« Reply #54 on: October 10, 2020, 06:37:37 PM »

I've heard that someone's tested out fighters with burn drives before, but the AI fighters weren't so great at using them.  Don't quote me on that, though.

Unless the game AI has all fighters in a given wing activate their Burn Drives in unison, that wing will be facing imminent defeat in detail. Without that guarantee, equipping fighters with a Burn Drive shipsystem is unlikely to be constructive or fun.  :(

The only exception I can see is if that shipsystem is given to a fighter wing consisting of a single fighter, which bypasses the likelihood of that wing's fighters spread out much too far for mutual aid (either defensive or offensive). To me, that's not very satisfying; tactically it's more like a single corvette, instead of several fighters cooperating. Breaks immersion.

If Alex could somehow see his way towards implementing code such that all fighters in a wing Burn simultaneously, I'd be pleased as well as grateful.
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Gladius
« Reply #55 on: October 11, 2020, 07:20:21 AM »

I think (certain types of) strikecraft could do with a strikecraft equivalent of 0-flux speed boost. A big old flat boost to speed (possibly even a single value they all reach regardless of in-combat speed) that's only active when they're travelling outside of fights. From the carrier to the frontline, from the frontline back to the carrier, between fights, when escorting and there's no enemies so they can better keep up with their escort target, etc.

Otherwise there's just too much of a speed disparity, slow strikecraft will always be inferior to fast strikecraft unless they are given absurd better-than-frigate stats. And interceptors can't properly do their job because if they're given enough speed to do their job and get to the thing they're supposed to intercept they're also so fast they can't hit things properly anymore.
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