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Author Topic: Fighter rework  (Read 4563 times)

intrinsic_parity

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Re: Fighter rework
« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2020, 10:01:10 PM »

I also don't agree that weapons like the plasma cannon are actually amazing against fighters. Sure they shred bombers flying slowly in a straight line right at you, but fighters that are moving quickly in strange directions are not reliable to hit with PC, unless there are simply so many of them that it is hard to miss. PC also costs a ton of flux to fire which is not what you want from PD. Accurate beam weapons are much better in that scenario (agile fighters moving evasively) IMO.

Fighters are only a real threat to big ships when there is a lot of them. Which is exactly when Plasma is good. Beams and PD are for mop up against the few fighters that survived approach vs Plasma. Unless we are talking about 4xTL Paragon, which is comparable to Plasma against fighters.

If sparks are swarming around your paragon, you're just as likely to friendly fire ships next to you as to actually hit a spark. I would argue that PC is best if there aren't enough fighters to make it through the first volley or if all the fighters are coming from one place (not huge swarms).  If the fighters are numerous enough to get close to you or coming from different directions, PC becomes much less useful and you NEED smaller weapons with good turn rates and accuracy. TL is even worse. The big weapons don't have the turn rate to track fast fighters flying around the ship, and using them to cover the sides and rear will not work out will in a fleet. That's what PD is for. I don't understand the narrative that PD is obsoleted by big guns (not necessarily you saying this, but some people seem to be thinking that way). They do different things. Big guns have slow turn rates and can only hit things on a direct approach which is small subset of the possible scenarios you can encounter.

I agree with you, just make fighters fly evasively or spread out a bit more on approach if they're too easy to hit. There's no reason to add RNG mechanics here.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2020, 11:29:03 PM by intrinsic_parity »
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Thaago

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Re: Fighter rework
« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2020, 10:35:31 PM »

Re: Some talk of the devastator previously:

It is unfortunate that it fires at max range and that many shells detonate too soon; I agree that it would be a better weapon if its firing logic held back for a bit and tried to "straddle" the enemy. It also has such a long fire delay that fast fighters/missiles can sneak in during the reload, so its a bad choice as the only PD covering an area.

Where it has value IMO is when the ship is being attacked by many wings at once. In that case the wide spread of shots is wasted much less and it can damage a number of wings at once. Its still not a particularly efficient PD/anti-fighter weapon because it sucks down a lot of flux, but its the only one that can saturate such a large area with AoE.
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Morrokain

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Re: Fighter rework
« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2020, 01:18:52 PM »

I agree that RNG dodge mechanics are not ideal. It's one of those cases where realism != fun.

As for certain weapons not being capable of hitting and therefore not targeting fighters, I've been barking up that tree for a while. Long story short, there is a cadre of players that really enjoy the 2D arcade-style hybrid uses of assault weapons and consider PD weapons as mostly anti-missile.

Personally, I dislike it - though not because of immersion in this case. I dislike it because of the inherent balancing issues a hybrid system causes. I saw an interesting analysis of some of the bloat design issues the original Guild Wars team started to go up against after releasing their third campaign. One of the big things that people at the time were worried about was separating out PvP and PvE skill definitions. A lot of people thought that route would A) be very confusing to new players trying to do both and B) not actually solve the balancing issues that came about from a skill being useless in PvE and broken in PvP (or vice-versa).

As it turns out, ANET was able to thread the needle very well and the change was immensely popular. The reason they were successful was that they kept a limited number of "sliding balance mechanisms" such as cooldown, cast time, etc as the way to separate the skills between the two game types. This meant the core skill design mostly stayed the same between each version in the vast majority of cases.

To bring this back to Starsector, Alex will likely start running into the same kinds of considerations using the hybrid weapon system. Take the Devastator. As people have already said, it's not great as an anti-fighter weapon but deals with frigates and destroyers very well. So, think about it: if the weapon is changed to be more accurate to its role, it has to be done very carefully or it will get even stronger as the anti-frigate option. Because each weapon can essentially serve multiple roles - at least when under manual player control - each change to a weapon cascades into multiple areas of combat. Even if the AI can't always leverage a change to their advantage, then you're dealing with a situation of player power creep - which already has to be carefully monitored.

Some players don't want their hellbore shots to be stopped by fighters, and some like using it that way and want it to remain an option. Ok, so give the hellbore passthrough (it might already have it I can't remember) and that solves the problem right? Maybe. It could also make the hellbore too flexible and become a catch-all weapon. As we can see, PC already kind of is. :P The main consideration of the PC is high flux generation - not its combat performance. If the big bad anti-ship weapons are also useful in stopping bomber waves, imo they are too strong. Simply having high flux generation won't matter to the player as much since they will just find a ship that can handle it.

TLDR: I don't like anti-ship weapons also being useful against bombers because it limits the overall design space and makes balancing that much more difficult.

I also don't agree that weapons like the plasma cannon are actually amazing against fighters. Sure they shred bombers flying slowly in a straight line right at you, but fighters that are moving quickly in strange directions are not reliable to hit with PC, unless there are simply so many of them that it is hard to miss. PC also costs a ton of flux to fire which is not what you want from PD. Accurate beam weapons are much better in that scenario (agile fighters moving evasively) IMO.

Fighters are only a real threat to big ships when there is a lot of them. Which is exactly when Plasma is good. Beams and PD are for mop up against the few fighters that survived approach vs Plasma. Unless we are talking about 4xTL Paragon, which is comparable to Plasma against fighters.

So looking at this from an AI perspective - there is no clear road for good AI behavior when you consider this analysis. Sometimes PC needs to be fired at bombers. Sometimes its really bad for the ship to do so (nimble fighters at close range) because it will generate too much flux. That sounds like a balancing nightmare to me. I think it makes the player too strong because they can make these calls and the AI will never be able to keep up. I also think it's the primary reason that players complain about fighter spam: they aren't dangerous in low numbers and break the AI in large numbers.

One way to perhaps solve this without what I know some of you consider "arbitrary combat rules" like a weapon being unable to hit fighters would be to change bomber behavior. Essentially change bombers to act more like fighters. They maintain full speed - they try to dodge over moving in a straight line - and they don't clump up. Instead, they try and coordinate an attack from multiple angles to give weapons like the PC a harder time. If that can be accomplished, I think true strike craft balance can be achieved and some wings won't need the padding that they currently have in order to not be invalidated by large weapons. Even still, that change creates balance complexity in other areas. For instance, how realistic will it be for bombers to coordinate an attack that way? If they end up trickling in to attack instead of acting as a spread out "wave", then the power of the strike is greatly diminished.

Idk, to me it seems straightforward to separate out the design space into more concrete roles and let hybrid role weapons be a niche exception rather than the rule. It makes balance so much easier. It may seem arbitrary or hard to communicate to players on the surface, but I think that is far more easily solved than the alternative considerations I've mentioned. It can be done visually, descriptively in the stat card and weapon blurb, and mentioned in the tutorial. Eventually, I think it would become rather intuitive to the player - especially if Alex tore a page out of Guild Wars' book and kept the types of weapons that behaved this way mostly thematically identical with a few balancing sliders.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2020, 01:32:43 PM by Morrokain »
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Megas

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Re: Fighter rework
« Reply #33 on: September 29, 2020, 02:17:47 PM »

Originally, Hellbore did not have the passthrough it has today, but it shot twice as fast, having more DPS (and slower ammo consumption) than HAG, while having bargain OP cost.  It was among the best and a bit overpowered back then.  Its flux cost was high, but vent spamming was an option back in those days.  Now, it is simply a very good armor breaker that ignores Annihilator spam from an enemy Onslaught.
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TaLaR

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Re: Fighter rework
« Reply #34 on: September 29, 2020, 02:31:57 PM »

Only Plasma has full pass-through.
Hellbore/Gauss pass only missiles. Which is still very useful, but means they aren't anywhere as good at swarm clearing.
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Gothars

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Re: Fighter rework
« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2020, 12:21:57 AM »

Weapons like the Hellbore could push fighters out of the way and knock out their engines for a few seconds. Same for the Devastator if it hits way of target.

Might be a good (looking) solution to streghten these weapons against fighters, but not frigates.
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Serenitis

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Re: Fighter rework
« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2020, 01:59:17 PM »

I do wish the Devastator he flak used proper proximity shells rather then randomly detonating shells like they currently do.

<starsector folder>\starsector-core\data\weapons\proj\
The twist here is that it already uses the proximity shells.
Spoiler
For ref. Devastator shots travel out to roughly flak cannon range before they start to burst (which accounts for the SO behaviour).
After the shells pass this point they pop 'randomly' in a roughly normal distribution, making the effective range somewhere around 650-675, rather than the advertised 900.

Devastator does however have 'shotRangeVariance' defined, which is the cause of the randomness.
Removing it is simple, but leaves the range lacking as the projectiles are no longer getting the extra range given by the variance added on top of it.
Not really all that sure about the exact range that needs to be specified, as the units used are not the same as the 'range' in-game.
Best guess:
Devastator proj range = 30
Variance = +0.75
30*1.75 = 52.5 (call it 52)

Doing this lets the Devastator fire out consistently to its maximum range.
This however introduces a new problem. Recoil.
The Devastator has horrible recoil stats, so the shots (even in the 1st volley) travel in a cone which then bursts the shells in an arc in front of the ship.
Adding the gunnery control hullmod (SWP) mitigates this a little, but not entirely.
This weapon still works like a shotgun; the closer you are to your target, the better it performs.
[close]
« Last Edit: October 05, 2020, 02:01:13 PM by Serenitis »
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SafariJohn

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Re: Fighter rework
« Reply #37 on: October 07, 2020, 03:07:23 PM »

Random idea: all weapons pierce fighters. That would hit fighter swarms hard without (hopefully) too much effect on small numbers of fighters.

Still leaves missiles in a weird spot. Maybe only anti-fighter missiles hit fighters, all others pass by without any effect.
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SaberCherry

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Re: Fighter rework
« Reply #38 on: October 07, 2020, 05:27:03 PM »

Random idea: all weapons pierce fighters. That would hit fighter swarms hard without (hopefully) too much effect on small numbers of fighters.

Still leaves missiles in a weird spot. Maybe only anti-fighter missiles hit fighters, all others pass by without any effect.

Fighters are pretty OP right now.  They are the only way you can concentrate power infinitely without steric hindrance.  Which means that currently, more fighters/carriers give increasing returns...

However, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me for a single LMG bullet, for example, to pierce 5 fight fighters with 100 armor and/or shields each...
« Last Edit: October 07, 2020, 05:31:39 PM by SaberCherry »
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SafariJohn

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Re: Fighter rework
« Reply #39 on: October 07, 2020, 05:47:43 PM »

Random idea: all weapons pierce fighters. That would hit fighter swarms hard without (hopefully) too much effect on small numbers of fighters.

Still leaves missiles in a weird spot. Maybe only anti-fighter missiles hit fighters, all others pass by without any effect.

However, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me for a single LMG bullet, for example, to pierce 5 fight fighters with 100 armor and/or shields each...

The other problem is that I doubt even piercing rounds would hit more than 1 fighter typically. Most fighter swarms aren't that dense.
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Morrokain

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Re: Fighter rework
« Reply #40 on: October 07, 2020, 09:19:30 PM »

This has been said before by others though I'm not sure if it was in this thread, but I think a pretty hefty active range reduction is one way to reduce spam effectiveness alongside some dedicated anti-fighter weapons (either changes to existing ones or otherwise). If the problem is concentration being too powerful, address that part specifically by requiring carriers to get closer to their targets. It works in two ways by helping to limit wing concentration large scale while preserving small scale effectiveness and it allows the AI to actually destroy the carrier more easily.

To be completely honest I don't really care about stat changes either way so if changes are needed then they're needed, but I think the idea that it will solve spamming is a flawed concept because of how scaling works. Other solutions like target saturation limiters certainly could work, but, it would feel really weird most likely and probably require a lot of dedicated effort to use the UI to communicate it.

(I'm also still rooting for some kind of quality limiter on wings on a carrier to carrier basis. Though the Spark is an endgame wing, recent tests in this thread suggest it is just a lot better than other wings. I don't really think this is a bad thing if there is a good trade off to not universally equip it. Right now, it at least seems that there isn't.)
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Megas

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Re: Fighter rework
« Reply #41 on: October 08, 2020, 05:37:09 AM »

Sounds like yet another reason to go back to fighters-as-ships.  With fighters-as-missiles, it seems so tempting to reduce the range until they are little more than Gradius options orbiting the ship just to appease the so-called god of balance on its altar.  And then they do not feel like fighters anymore.  (They feel more like missiles than fighters already.)

Sparks are too good.  (I rarely use any other non-bomber after I loot enough of them.)  They probably need their wing size cut to three or four.  They could have their OP cost raised, but fighters other than mining pods cost too much OP already.

Fighters are not that bad until player dedicates the fleet for it much the same way player could dedicate pilums in pre-0.7a releases and kill everything.
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Megas

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Re: Fighter rework
« Reply #42 on: October 08, 2020, 06:54:05 AM »

Part of what makes fighters good is player being able to sink everything into fighter stuff for carriers, such as any fighter that costs 8 OP or more and must-have Expanded Deck Crew.  Thus, we get superior unarmed (or minimally armed) carriers with fighters that murder everything instead of inferior classic hybrid-style brawlers that carry fighters instead of more cargo/crew/fuel.

If player cannot sink everything into fighters (e.g., Expanded Deck Crew is weakened to be on par with something like Recovery Shuttles, so that it is no longer must-have), then not only fighters are weakened, but also carriers might have the OP to support guns properly again like they used to.  It hurts piloting a ship like a Buffalo or Colossus that carries fighters instead of lots of cargo.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Fighter rework
« Reply #43 on: October 08, 2020, 09:15:13 AM »

Aren't there penalties for having too many carriers in the next release?
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SafariJohn

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Re: Fighter rework
« Reply #44 on: October 08, 2020, 09:17:07 AM »

I think you just get less bonuses from carrier skills if you have too many flight decks.
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