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Author Topic: How do we make small ships useful?  (Read 6710 times)

Nafensoriel

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Re: How do we make small ships useful?
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2020, 02:52:20 PM »

Balancing troubles with this. If you give frigates a big enough punch to take out capitals in packs... you invalidate capitals.
If you don't give them that punch... you invalidate frigates.

It would be far better to give frigates a specialized role instead. Like tweaking their AI to be PD boats when assigned to escort or even flankers. Also you could simply give them a specialized single or paired hullmods.. IE Frigate hullmod=Ship under fire suffers x% accuracy penalty for 5s. Something to give them force multiplication without exactly beefing up their attack.
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SaberCherry

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Re: How do we make small ships useful?
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2020, 03:35:23 PM »

Balancing troubles with this. If you give frigates a big enough punch to take out capitals in packs... you invalidate capitals.
If you don't give them that punch... you invalidate frigates.

Actually, that's why destroyers were developed - because cheap, small boats carrying torpedoes could take out capitals in packs, thus invalidating them - and the big guns on capitals weren't effective against size and agility.  So destroyers were designed to escort capitals and and protect them from torpedo boats.  In Starsector, though, you can't mass frigates due to fleet size limitations, so deploying frigates against fleets packing multiple capitals is a bad idea.  And if the point of destroyers is to kill frigates, then without frigates, they're pointless too.  So you're left with optimal fleets being primarily capitals, which is less interesting.
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Igncom1

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Re: How do we make small ships useful?
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2020, 03:47:08 PM »

Well I mean.... what are torpedo bombers, in space, but torpedo boats by another name?

A squadron of cobra bombers will eat capital ships quite easily!
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SaberCherry

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Re: How do we make small ships useful?
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2020, 04:19:53 PM »

Well I mean.... what are torpedo bombers, in space, but torpedo boats by another name?

A squadron of cobra bombers will eat capital ships quite easily!
Sort of, but I feel like they function more like airplanes (which really did obsolete capitals).  Hosted on a carrier, launched in squadrons, manned by a single pilot each, execute a mission and return, vulnerable to flak.  Now their speeds certainly leave something to be desired for the analogy - there were not many real-world warplanes slower than boats, although biplanes possibly were in some cases.  Hmm, I guess they basically fit as an analogue to torpedo boats, but they ruin the point I was making, so I'll ignore them  :P
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DubTre6

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Re: How do we make small ships useful?
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2020, 05:24:22 AM »

I always keep a few frigates around for auto-resolve but that's just me
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SCC

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Re: How do we make small ships useful?
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2020, 06:31:48 AM »

Most meaningful difference between a single strong ship and a bunch of weak ones would be that a single ship can't be in multiple locations at once, but unfortunately, there's no implemented way in the game to leverage that advantage.

ubuntufreakdragon

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Re: How do we make small ships useful?
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2020, 10:24:16 AM »

Frigates are about doing the masses, there is no way a constant fleet limit will ever favour them.
So here are my ideas:

Have larger ships give discounts for fleet size e.g.
any cruiser halve supports one frigate halving its impact on fleet size any Capital full supports one frigate and halve supports a destroy.

Give frigates a logistical benefit e.g. reduced fleet slowdown by nebulas,deep hyperspace ... if enough high burn ships are available to scout your navigation path for the slower ones.
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Igncom1

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Re: How do we make small ships useful?
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2020, 10:36:00 AM »

A hull mod for capitals: "Command relays: +2 frigate or +1 destroyer free slot added to fleet."

Or something like that. Short of turn the game into a table top wargame with force organisation charts and so on....
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Daynen

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Re: How do we make small ships useful?
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2020, 04:36:31 PM »

What if your hyperspace speed wasn't determined by the slowest ship in your fleet, but by the average burn speed?  Might be a good incentive to add some speedy frigates to your fleet, aye?  The Ox already hints at this by increasing your overall burn by 1 but what if it was just an inherent quality of keeping faster ships around?
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Megas

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Re: How do we make small ships useful?
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2020, 06:16:31 PM »

What if your hyperspace speed wasn't determined by the slowest ship in your fleet, but by the average burn speed?  Might be a good incentive to add some speedy frigates to your fleet, aye?  The Ox already hints at this by increasing your overall burn by 1 but what if it was just an inherent quality of keeping faster ships around?
I doubt it would help enough.  It just means less tugs to haul around or no more need to put Augmented Engines on capitals.
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SaberCherry

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Re: How do we make small ships useful?
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2020, 08:03:57 PM »

I always keep a few frigates around for auto-resolve but that's just me
I do too.  And destroyers.  But what if you get in a serious battle?  And what if you want to salvage some enemy ships after the battle?  Everything other than capitals in your fleet is a handicap.  If a serious AI mission comes to crush you with 4 fleets of 50% capitals each, you will regret filling your limited fleet slots with anything other than capitals (and if you win, you will regret filling your fleet to 30 so you can't recover any enemy capitals).  Not only will you run out of PPT early and lose without even being able to fight, their fleets will be able to field 180 DP to your 120 DP so you will face defeat in detail every single time, even if you don't face all 4 at once.  As it stands, even in 1v1 fleet battles, fielding frigates is a terrible idea because each fleet is limited to 30 slots.  So if, say, a fleet with 15 capitals and 15 frigates faces an enemy with 30 capitals, guess who will win?  Or a fleet of 30 capitals versus 10 capitals, 10 cruisers, 5 destroyers, and 5 frigates.  It's obvious in every case, the fleet size cap simply wrecks the utility of small ships.  The only reason to keep small ships around is to take advantage of unrealistic game rules, like it somehow costs less to shoot with your small ships and let them take some damage while keeping your bigger ships silent, compared to just crushing an enemy fleet as fast as possible.

What if your hyperspace speed wasn't determined by the slowest ship in your fleet, but by the average burn speed?  Might be a good incentive to add some speedy frigates to your fleet, aye?  The Ox already hints at this by increasing your overall burn by 1 but what if it was just an inherent quality of keeping faster ships around?
I doubt it would help enough.  It just means less tugs to haul around or no more need to put Augmented Engines on capitals.
Tugs are another thing that just take up slots in your fleet and reduce your combat capability, so I don't use them; I'd rather lose 40 OP for augmented drive field on a Capital than have 4 tugs, which is the equivalent.  However, I'm playing a modded game right now with Tiandong.  I would absolutely play with their ships primarily (their special is that they ignore speed-reducing space features) if it was averaged.  But, as far as I can tell, if you ever recover or buy a single non-Tiandong ship anywhere, you are capped by its speed.  I can't fill my fleet with Tiandong ships, since I can't afford to buy them, I can't find them for every role I need, and I almost never recover them in the wild, so that special ability is completely useless to me.  But it would actually make the faction viable (IMO) if having mostly their ships would mostly give you the ability to ignore terrain, or basically, speed was averaged.

However, logically, it doesn't make any sense for capitals to go faster when you have a bunch of frigates nearby (not to mention that there is currently no stated reason for frigates to be faster than capitals over long distances, rather than just being more maneuverable [note that on the ocean, longer ships are faster, so absent a justification, that model makes more sense]).  It would be nice if tugs gave +2 to ships in sustained burn though.

Honestly, it makes the most sense to me if in combat speed is correlated to ship width/length ratio (since they can have more thrusters) while strategically, speed is correlated to length (if the interstellar speed was capped by something like particle density and cladding like in House of Suns (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Suns)).  But either way if big ships are going to be slow in hyperspace I'd like to see a justification for it, as well as a justification for why realspace and hyperspace speeds are linked.  Currently combat speed is unrelated to system and hyperspace speeds, which is fine!  But system and hyperspace speeds are the same which is a bit odd without any sort of explanation.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2020, 08:51:18 PM by SaberCherry »
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Omfgasquirrel

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Re: How do we make small ships useful?
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2020, 03:46:34 AM »

So what if there was like a phase in big battles where it was only frigates and maybe a few destroyers. After it was done the real battle would start. Then if someone didnt have any small ships they get like an encircled lack of screening penalty of some kind. Even make it small space and timed so its not a battle to the death just a skirmish before the battle for posturing.
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Serenitis

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Re: How do we make small ships useful?
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2020, 06:04:29 AM »

one thing I like doing for frigates is to reserve them until lines are met. Then they come in and flank enemy flankers and generally contribute a lot more
Same.
I found that I was far more willing to keep frigates around once I made myself stop deploying them with the rest of my fleet, and treat them as supporting forces.
They might get deployed, they might not. Depends how things go. But one thing is certain; none of them will be going in at the start of the battle.


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Megas

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Re: How do we make small ships useful?
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2020, 06:25:18 AM »

Tugs are another thing that just take up slots in your fleet and reduce your combat capability, so I don't use them; I'd rather lose 40 OP for augmented drive field on a Capital than have 4 tugs, which is the equivalent.
When minimizing tugs, player needs to use both to reach burn 20.  With Navigation, player needs either four tugs or Augmented Engines on capitals plus two tugs to reach burn 20.  Without Navigation, add two more tugs.  I do not recommend no Navigation; your fleet guzzles significantly more fuel, not to mention no Transverse Jump to save time and make playing whack-a-mole zombie pirates a little easier.

Also, thanks to battlemap size limits, tugs do not reduce combat capability as much as Augmented Engines on your big ships.  However, what tugs will do is 1) clog fleet slots for other logistics ships or recovering ships and 2) guzzle more fuel; tugs are fuel hogs which might mean bringing another Prometheus (which is also another fuel hog) in the fleet for long distance trips, even with Efficiency Overhaul on every ship.  Excessive fuel use is why do not want too many tugs.
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SaberCherry

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Re: How do we make small ships useful?
« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2020, 10:44:01 AM »

I found it was easier to just settle for speed 18 than bring tugs and etc; speed 20 requires so many compromises...  The presets are really nice, so at least when defending colonies, I can quickly switch to a 'combat' preset (without augmented drives) and switch back when I want to travel somewhere.
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