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Author Topic: [0.9.1a] Simple Bribes  (Read 925 times)

ClownCat

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[0.9.1a] Simple Bribes
« on: July 13, 2020, 03:30:14 PM »

This is a small mod that lets you pay your way out of conflict with vanilla factions the same way the luddic path has a tithe you can pay to not get blown to bits.
Download is here

It is to be noted that this mod doesn't affect modded factions out of the box see below.
Compatibility
This mod has a compatibility with faction mods but it is done in a complicated way that has a very very high chance of breaking other faction mods but the issue doesn't lie with the faction mod but with the nature of this mod.
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The troubles
I've come under a lot of fire in the unofficial starsector discord for the unorthodox way of making this mod compatible with hopefully almost all faction mods. Though I call it monkypatching because it's essentially made of banana paste It is to be noted that if you do use monkypatching all bugs are to be directed to me first because banana paste is not very good at keeping things working together.To do monkypatching you must edit the pySettings.monky file by adding the faction id to the other faction names. After this you must put the SimpleBribes mod folder alongside the other faction mods in your starsector mod folder after that the MonkyPatch.py should be launched (if you do not know how to do this please give up) after that is done the mod should work with the modded factions
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Screenies

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Special thanks to SirHartley who helped me a ton on the discord (:
Ok this should be all cheers feel free to email me or message me on discord at clown cat#6367
:))))))))
« Last Edit: July 13, 2020, 05:54:10 PM by ClownCat »
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Johnny Cocas

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Re: [0.9.1a] Simple Bribes
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2020, 02:55:40 AM »

This mod is weird on a logic point of view, and bad in an implementation point of view. Allow me to start with the easiest one:

Why would someone like what are basically "space terrorists" accept a bribe from a random person or faction? Same thing goes for totalitarian, extremist or simply "bad guys" with nothing but the desire of conquering more stuff and destroying anything that is not one of them, not to mention certain factions where the "AI" will certainly not desire peace by any means, assuming they even know what a bribe is. Why would any of them accept peace through bribe (and in some cases, peace at all?)?

Now for the worst part...
The way you implemented this is wrong in several levels:
- It injects code into other people's mods, it would be MUCH preferable to go the same way mods such as Nexerelin or Commissioned Crews went, and if people want to have this feature on their mod, they WILL add it, in most cases you won't even need to ask people to add compatibility on their end because they'll do it gladly, no need for this (or any other mod) to forcibly change their files;
- It has the potential to break mods that require scripted interactions or certain faction relationships to be true within certain parameters, and even though you have a whitelist available allowing people to add the factions they want to be at peace with is NOT a desirable option to give to the common user the option to do so, as they'll be breaking mods without knowing it, and hoping that they will read one of the comments you have in the whitelist or even the forum thread in hope that they'll know your mod is the culprit if something goes wrong is putting your faith in the wrong hands when some fail to read messages right next to the download button itself;
- What if some modder DOES want his mod to be compatible with this mod? Will said person have to talk with you so you can update the whitelist with the next patch? Wouldn't it be easier to follow the same way many other mods did compatibility with faction mods? By doing so each faction could even set a tax or custom bribe values for their own faction, allowing for customization, ease and freedom to make a faction compatible if each faction mod's owner so decides;
- What if the user simply wants to install this mod and have all it's features available out of the box? Will they always be forced to edit the files if they want to (in practice) truly "enable" this mod?


Some notes:
- Yes, I mentioned the "space terrorists" and I know the Luddic Path is not in the whitelist, but that paragraph still applies to some modded factions as well;
- The existance of a whitelist does not invalidate the fact that this is not a safe implementation and makes turning a faction mod compatible with this mod a pain for the user, while all the user should have to do is download the mod, paste it in the correct folder and it's all done;
- I've seen the convos that happened in the discord server, and I'd recommend that you re-read them and accept the suggestions and tips people gave you. I don't expect you (or hope you don't) get backlash for doing things the way you did, but I can expect modders to start channeling errors at you and eventually people will start getting mad, nobody likes to have to deal with issues caused by someone else, and this will be no exception. You can prevent that from happening, and changing the way this mod works by giving modders the option to either make their faction compatible with this mod or not will be better for everyone: you, the modders, and the users.
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.9.1a] Simple Bribes
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2020, 02:20:18 PM »

Expanding on what Johnny Cocas said, his warnings are sound, but I get that putting work into a mod that immediately gets warnings of this kind can be discouraging. So, what I'll say is:

If you need help doing a better implementation - just ask! Many are willing to give some time from their day to help a new modder - especially when it benefits the community as a whole!  :)

Since I am also working (slowly but surely - my god there is a lot to do!) on my own faction dialogue mod that will have bribery as part of the dialogue options, I can tell you that making it not impact faction mods and letting them tweak how the bribery mechanic works faction by faction IS possible! Because of how Rules works, that can be done without impacting any custom scripts.

@Johnny Cocas
I'm not sure I agree with the overall analysis of who would accept bribes and who would not. I mean, if Luddic Path accepts/demands them, then pretty much most if not all vanilla factions (outside the AI ones) would. They would accept credits over smashing high tech vessels and their doctrine literally revolves around those things being sinful! In that sense, they would be the ones most obvious to not accept them, but they do. lol.  ;D

Mod factions obviously would depend upon the vision of the mod author - which is why giving them a lever to allow/disallow this sort of thing is important.
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ClownCat

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Re: [0.9.1a] Simple Bribes
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2020, 01:46:43 PM »

Alright so I thought of other faction's dialogue options and since I plan on not only expanding this mod but making more "simple" mods of things I feel should be part of vanilla but aren't. There is a very simple way to make dialogue trump over this and I will make that more compatible in the next update. The bribe dialogue only has 5 more score than default greetings and that's on purpose seeing as modders might want extra options to show up on greetings meaning that all they have to do is let the score of the special interaction have 6 more score than the regular one which modders probably already have in place. Plus I, at the time of writing, haven't received any complaints from anyone about this and I will 100% do my best to deal with each one of those. It's just I prefer dealing with issues as they show up instead of dealing with potential issues I might not know about. And yes this may sound contradictory to my plan on making this mod as future-proof as possible but I can somewhat control this stuff and I honestly don't want anyone to pester faction modders over my stupid mod so that's the big push towards that. Anyways if you do have existing issues with the mod send me an email or dm me on discord because that's the best way to contact me by far.
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Johnny Cocas

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Re: [0.9.1a] Simple Bribes
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2020, 05:28:38 AM »

...which modders probably already have in place.
That is a problem.... every time you say "probably" you should do things in other ways because chances are there is some mod that won't work properly with this....

Plus I, at the time of writing, haven't received any complaints from anyone about this and I will 100% do my best to deal with each one of those. It's just I prefer dealing with issues as they show up instead of dealing with potential issues I might not know about.
I am trying to warn you in order to prevent complaints from appearing, waiting for a complaint to appear before you do something is a terrible way of programming, trust me or anyone else that does programming for a living on this one...

And yes this may sound contradictory to my plan on making this mod as future-proof as possible but I can somewhat control this stuff and I honestly don't want anyone to pester faction modders over my stupid mod so that's the big push towards that.
That is the thing... if things go wrong people WILL pester faction modders over this, and you CAN avoid that by offering more compatibility and tools for the factions modders to use.

Expanding on what Johnny Cocas said, his warnings are sound, but I get that putting work into a mod that immediately gets warnings of this kind can be discouraging. So, what I'll say is:

If you need help doing a better implementation - just ask! Many are willing to give some time from their day to help a new modder - especially when it benefits the community as a whole!  :)
I appreciate your message and the work you are making on your mod (and will be looking forwards to it) and you are not wrong, at all, people are willing to help and offer tips on how to make things properly, BUT the main issue here is people had already given help and their opinion over Discord, warning ClownCat that the methods used in this mod are dangerous and there are better alternatives, and yet ClownCat decidded to ignore them and continue doing stuff this way regardless. I tried to warn him again with my message, but it appears this is turning into yet another case of someone not taking feedback and opinions that go against their work... Let us hope this is not the case, it will depend on the answer given to this message.
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