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Author Topic: Overwhelming new players  (Read 3232 times)

poika

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Overwhelming new players
« on: July 05, 2020, 10:32:17 PM »

I only have about 20 hours into the game, so I'm a newbie. But that's the point. I also want to make clear my suggestion/complaint has absolutely nothing to do with the mechanics or difficulty of the game, only the pacing of the introduction.

I played the tutorials. Started a new game. Picked "Easy" as it was recommended for first-time players and chose to do the campaign tutorial as well.
I picked my ship and a support ship. I read their descriptions, flavor texts, statistics, weapon groups etc. I had a pretty good understanding of my fleet.

The second or third mission in the game gave me a third ship, a transport ship. I was excited. But in the very same mission less than 30 minutes into the game I was given five more ships. My fleet had gone from two ships to eight ships in a matter of minutes. Once again I read all the descriptions and statistics, but naturally I couldn't really remember which was which anymore. The next mission had me outfit all of them with weapons, so now I had about 40 new weapons to keep track of as well.

The problem wasn't the difficulty, I could handle the fights with ease. But I didn't know what was happening anymore. I didn't know which weapon combinations were working and which ones weren't. I wasn't even sure which of the ships were doing the heavy lifting, even though I had obviously experienced a power spike.

The reason games typically ease players in isn't just to smooth out the difficulty curve, it's to keep them invested. An RTS game starts simple and introduces new units with each mission. A shooter game doesn't just dump an entire arsenal to the player right from the start, they're slowly introduced so the player gets an opportunity to experiement with each and understands how or why he's becoming more powerful.

Now if I was an experienced player this obviously wouldn't be an issue, as I would already be familiar with the ships and which weapons worked well with them. But an experienced player is unlikely to pick "Easy" and then choose to do the tutorial too. On the other hand this is how most new players are introduced to the game.

What I ended up doing was I sold all these aforementioned ships, and started buying new ships one at a time to fill whatever need I had once I got the credits. I could guess from the exchange rates that this was not an optimal way to play the game, but it was a way to keep me invested. Now it's my fleet, put together piece by piece and each for a purpose I thought of. It's undoubtedly far from perfect as I have no clue what I'm doing, but at least I know what the plan is. I don't feel like I was just dumped a bunch of ships and told to go watch the fireworks anymore.

I have no complaints about the general mechanics or the amount of customizability in the game. All that stuff is great. I just don't think the campaign tutorial is paced very well, because I can see a lot of players simply losing interest when the amount of variables at play all of a sudden skyrockets. A new player is already just learning the ropes, and suddenly they're given way too many things to keep track of before they're even fully comfortable with the previous ships, let alone all the UI and strategy of the game. It's easy to just stop caring. A more gradual build-up would also foster a more personal commitment to each ship, as the player gets to see first hand what each new addition brings to the table without it being drowned out into a tidal wave of changes.

Anyway, this post turned out longer than I expected, but I hope it could somehow be helpful if the early game is ever restructured in a future release. I'm already past the point where any of this affects me anymore, so I really only typed this up to help make the game better for all those who come after me.
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Mondaymonkey

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Re: Overwhelming new players
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2020, 11:09:44 PM »

All I can see from the text, is that you are actually doing great in SS. Keep it up!

We all know, tutorial isn't perfect and probably need serious changes. Nevertheless, what you ask is barely possible. It is theoretically possible to fit all vital information in proper tutorial and give it to player in small pieces one by one. But that would be longest and most boring tutorial ever. And I doubt it helps.

You see, reading description and analyzing stats can not give you all the information you need (that would make them even longer and more overwhelming). The only way to know if ship/weapon/skill is good in precise role - try it, or face an enemy using it. So, yeah, you chose exactly right strategy - get rid of many unwanted things and start to include them to your acknowledge space one by one.

My personal tip for you - ignore description and stats until you actually try it. Some thing are good only on paper, just like bad stats sometimes hide extremely effective narrow specialist. Good luck!

EDIT: typo.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2020, 11:11:48 PM by Mondaymonkey »
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Morrokain

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Re: Overwhelming new players
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2020, 01:22:08 AM »

We all know, tutorial isn't perfect and probably need serious changes. Nevertheless, what you ask is barely possible. It is theoretically possible to fit all vital information in proper tutorial and give it to player in small pieces one by one. But that would be longest and most boring tutorial ever. And I doubt it helps.

It very much helps. It is also extremely difficult to do correctly at a pace that satisfies everyone- to be fair. It would be "boring" to a veteran, maybe, but not a new player completely unfamiliar with the mechanics - unless the actual content of the tutorial was boring and didn't scale correctly. To use one of the OP's examples, RTS is an established genre and things carry over from RTS to RTS. Starsector is something completely brand new. As such, more care has to be taken to explain the nuances of some very, very juicy gameplay. See this thread for an example of this concept in action:

https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=18784.0

You don't have to spoon feed everything, but the difficulty variances from the tutorial to the actual game are extremely punishing- especially considering the RNG factor. It takes some commitment to get through that if you are a more casual type of gamer. Without more experienced players to give valuable advice and feedback, this player might have just given up. If they do this without bothering to come to the forums, then that is likely a bad review - whether online or simply when explaining the game to personal friends.

Barrier to entry is a very important factor in game design. I'm not in favor of "watered down" gameplay mechanics as a result of that fact, however, but to say it doesn't have an impact to the audience is fatally wrong.

The more people able to "pick up" Starsector casually, the better overall game it will be in terms of both exposure and room for growth. I doubt anyone would call it a casual game at the current state. What separates good games from mediocre games after this critical junction is whether the game can continue to challenge its more hardcore audience so that both groups endorse it. Its a bit of a tightrope walk.
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Mondaymonkey

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Re: Overwhelming new players
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2020, 01:57:24 AM »

@Morrokain

Each and every word you say is true. Still can not agree with you entirely.

I see no problem in "too much information at the same time". General newbie problem - game does not forgive accidental mistakes player do because of incomplete knowledge. I mean, we have sensor strength and damage bonus for easy difficulty (casual players should use it by-default, right?). Is that it? That does not make game <much> easier. Where is the option to disengage without being pursued and CR lost? Where is guaranteed and fast resupply fleet if "distress call" used? Where is much slower CR loss if out off supplies or crew understrength? Where is much weaker raids/expeditions, that will not disturb your colonies for first 3 years they established? Where is infinite stipend? Where is flat +2 burn bonus? Where is 90% decreased hyperspace storm activities? Where is 5% tariffs? Where is deciv impossible at all? Where is ability to recover your own ships with no D-mods? Where all of thees things, that will give newbie an ability to make mistakes, without loosing all his progress?

I think "easy" difficulty should really be easy, to give player time to understand how it works. I think, trying give him all information they need to survive in "real" SS and avoid mistakes, pointless.

I respect your well-reasoned position, but do not agree with it.
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SCC

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Re: Overwhelming new players
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2020, 02:15:58 AM »

Well, you ultimately did it, so... It's not all that bad, is it? In hindsight, though, the tutorial could use some downsizing. It's not really necessary to give the player destroyers right away. Lowest level bounties and small pirate fleets are smaller than tutorial jump point fleets.
Also, doesn't combat tutorial (one accessible from the main menu) explain what damage types are? I don't even remember anymore.

Where is the option to disengage without being pursued and CR lost? Where is guaranteed and fast resupply fleet if "distress call" used? Where is much slower CR loss if out off supplies or crew understrength? Where is much weaker raids/expeditions, that will not disturb your colonies for first 3 years they established? Where is infinite stipend? Where is flat +2 burn bonus? Where is 90% decreased hyperspace storm activities? Where is 5% tariffs? Where is deciv impossible at all? Where is ability to recover your own ships with no D-mods? Where all of thees things, that will give newbie an ability to make mistakes, without loosing all his progress?

I think "easy" difficulty should really be easy, to give player time to understand how it works. I think, trying give him all information they need to survive in "real" SS and avoid mistakes, pointless.
At some point, the game will become too easy and players will feel disengaged, because even if they can understand what's happening, it's so easy it isn't engaging anymore and they might think that normal difficulty level is boring as well. It might also create wrong habits (such as people not caring about running out of fuel in hyperspace. With your changes, on easy it would be a given someone would come give you a hand, but on normal? Sometimes you might get nothing, sometimes you get jumped on by pirates), which can be overcome, but not everyone might want to.
For specifics, I think that flat +2 burn bonus might give new players a wrong impression of how manoeuvrable their fleet is going to be later on, and that colonies should need no handholding, as its hardly an early game thing.

Grievous69

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Re: Overwhelming new players
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2020, 02:29:53 AM »

I mean, we have sensor strength and damage bonus for easy difficulty (casual players should use it by-default, right?). Is that it? That does not make game <much> easier. Where is the option to disengage without being pursued and CR lost? Where is guaranteed and fast resupply fleet if "distress call" used? Where is much slower CR loss if out off supplies or crew understrength? Where is much weaker raids/expeditions, that will not disturb your colonies for first 3 years they established? Where is infinite stipend? Where is flat +2 burn bonus? Where is 90% decreased hyperspace storm activities? Where is 5% tariffs? Where is deciv impossible at all? Where is ability to recover your own ships with no D-mods? Where all of thees things, that will give newbie an ability to make mistakes, without loosing all his progress?

I think "easy" difficulty should really be easy, to give player time to understand how it works. I think, trying give him all information they need to survive in "real" SS and avoid mistakes, pointless.
SCC beat me to it but yeah, what's the point of all this? Might as well make a ''creative'' mode where people just fool around and learn about ships and weapons. With your proposed changes (or similar ones), the new players would be even more confused when they start playing on normal. Because they'll ''learn'' wrong things and get used to not caring about specific stats or what else. While current easy setting just makes some parts less punishing (which is the whole point of easy options), your suggestion straight out ignores game mechanics altogether.

Better tutorial >> baby mode
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Mondaymonkey

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Re: Overwhelming new players
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2020, 02:37:59 AM »

Quote
At some point, the game will become too easy and players will feel disengaged, because even if they can understand what's happening, it's so easy it isn't engaging anymore and they might think that normal difficulty level is boring as well.

When did you last time talked to casual players? There ane no such thing as "too easy" for them. And if player thinks game is too easy - he probably not that casual and should change difficulty. BTW, it should be an option to do this in existed save and a reminder of this.

On the other hand, I maybe went too far it what I said. Burn bonus could be really over a top. Well, I did never say it is a turnkey solution, rather guidelines.

Still

learning on mistakes>>avoiding mistakes
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Grievous69

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Re: Overwhelming new players
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2020, 02:58:14 AM »

Yeah but to learn from mistakes you must be able to make mistakes in the first place. No d-mods when recovering ships will just make players not care if their ship dies in combat, you just lose a bit of crew and that's it. 90% decreased storm activity in hyperspace would make travel even slower actually. And the weirdest of all ''option to disengage without being pursued'', what does this achieve lol? That way a player may never enter combat despite being caught. He's not gonna learn anything if there's nothing saying ''well now you're gonna get slapped''.

From my experience talking with new folks and also friends who are very casual, the biggest thing they don't get is the ship loadouts. They can't figure out what to do with each ship, what weapons to put, which hullmods and so on. Which is understandable for a game with a lot of depth in customization. This is why I proposed a brief refit tutorial in the campaign explaining each choice and why it's made and then going into simulator to test it out.
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TaLaR

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Re: Overwhelming new players
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2020, 03:04:07 AM »

Best extended tutorial is to dive into sim from missions and not come out until you can reliably pilot whatever and beat most ships 1 size larger in duel (outside non-combat/semi-combat ships or particularly bad match-ups and preferably without relying on SO/Sabots).
« Last Edit: July 06, 2020, 03:05:42 AM by TaLaR »
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Mondaymonkey

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Re: Overwhelming new players
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2020, 03:21:32 AM »

Quote
And the weirdest of all ''option to disengage without being pursued'', what does this achieve lol? That way a player may never enter combat despite being caught. He's not gonna learn anything if there's nothing saying ''well now you're gonna get slapped''.

Arhh... You really need a details? Fine.

"option to disengage without being pursued" should be read as "Option to beg a mercy for enemy with a 90 chance on success (because of you too miserable to spend a bullet) but no more than once for each hostile NPC fleet per game week. That fleet will chase player again after a some time, given you to run. Player can not interact with planets and other objects during that period."

I can do this for each position I say. I thought it is just obvious to write so detailed...
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Overwhelming new players
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2020, 03:23:30 AM »

If a tutorial, and by extension an easy mode, is so easy that you can't make mistakes it doesn't do it's job.
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Serenitis

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Re: Overwhelming new players
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2020, 05:00:54 AM »

It might be worth considering divorcing the tutorial from the game entirely, and have it as it's own self contained "module" that can be invoked from the game menu as required.
That way it could be expanded to cover the various mechanics without the constraint of trying to also manitain a cohesive narrative at the same time.
Maybe even go into enough detail to have "automated" segments which show how things work & how to use them.

This is all pipedream stuff though, and represents a very non-trivial amount of work.

...the tutorial could use some downsizing. It's not really necessary to give the player destroyers right away.
This however, is something that could be addressed, and would (imo) make the game "flow" feel a bit less like a torrent.
And I'm saying this as someone who despises flying frigates myself. If it helps player uptake/retention even the tiniest bit - hit me.
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Megas

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Re: Overwhelming new players
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2020, 06:35:27 AM »

If too many ships are a problem, give fewer but better ships and weapons.  They need to be fast, so... Falcon and maybe that new Fury?  I would say give them the Drover instead of Condor, but Drover will be weakened somehow.

When I first played the tutorial, separating the two fleets guarding the gate was too hard, and I always fought both fleets at the same time.  Player needs to be able to win against both.  Or... one of the fleets can be removed.  (Ideally, the fleets should be ignored until gate is reactivated, then player completes mission, then kill fleets after bounty is posted.)

Quote
Yeah but to learn from mistakes you must be able to make mistakes in the first place. No d-mods when recovering ships will just make players not care if their ship dies in combat, you just lose a bit of crew and that's it. 90% decreased storm activity in hyperspace would make travel even slower actually.
For that, ships need to be easily replaced.  Otherwise, player may save-scum to replay combat until no (or fewer and acceptable losses), assuming he does not give up and quit.  Before 0.8, ships were rare and hard to replace, as were weapons not found in Open Market.  (Weapons were usually lost until 0.9a.)  Grinding for replacements often took longer than reloading the game and replaying the fight and winning with fewer casualties.

This is what I fear in the next release with permamods.  If story points (fuel for permamods) end up being harder to accumulate than cash, I would not bat an eye save-scumming to undo unacceptable casualties (which would be anything with a permamod, which will be every ship in my fleet by endgame), which is what I did before 0.8a when everything that was good was rare and hard to accumulate.

Currently, I can shrug off casualties because replacing ships is easy after player can build whatever he wants cheaply with Orbital Works.  (Next release, newly built ships probably will not get permamods, which means spending story points to add them back to new ships.  Thus, if story points are hard to accumulate, then Restoration is the way to go, but that costs way too much money, so... save-scum for third option.)
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Grievous69

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Re: Overwhelming new players
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2020, 06:42:01 AM »

Here we are, most of us agreeing that having multiple destroyers immediately is too much for new players, and then Megas comes in and says we should get 2 cruisers in the tutorial... Pacing my man, pacing. As much as I'm not a fan of small fights with frigates, a tutorial fleet with more than 4 frigates, or a destroyer and 2 frigates is a bit too much. Someone pointed out already, it's not that hard to earn money even with a frigate fleet.
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Megas

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Re: Overwhelming new players
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2020, 06:53:56 AM »

Cruisers that are oversized destroyers, the 15 DP ones.  The point was to replace quantity with quality.  Maybe replace the Wolf with Shrike while we are at it.
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