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Author Topic: Tactical laser vs PD laser  (Read 5587 times)

FooF

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Re: Tactical laser vs PD laser
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2020, 11:37:09 AM »

Interesting thing about non-IPDAI tac lasers: they can be very effective anti-missile swarm weapons, but only by accident. Because they pass through missiles (unlike LRPD) they can actually hit dozens of missiles at once. Same thing with Graviton beams. This usually happens with an Eagle where its focusing its beams forward and all the missiles pass through the beam zone.

Correct, non-PD beams don't get stopped by missiles so beam-boat setups get some PD by accident. I just did an all-beam Paragon the other day and was pleasantly surprised by the hideous amount of missiles it could stop by simply focus-firing. I tried adding IPDAI and it made the Paragon objectively worse in a lot of ways.
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Mondaymonkey

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Re: Tactical laser vs PD laser
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2020, 11:43:28 AM »

Well... If using that logic - best PD is plasma canon. Can annihilate both swarms of missiles and hives of fighters.
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Igncom1

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Re: Tactical laser vs PD laser
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2020, 11:50:14 AM »

Reapers are the best PD. You only need one shot.  ;D
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Terethall

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Re: Tactical laser vs PD laser
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2020, 12:16:15 PM »

Out of curiosity, is there a situation where IPDAI is really worth the OP cost? I've never found it useful and have basically stopped experimenting with it.
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Igncom1

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Re: Tactical laser vs PD laser
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2020, 12:41:29 PM »

It gives great buffs to PD, in my opinion.

"Gives all small non-missile weapons the ability to automatically target incoming enemy missiles and to identify - and ignore - decoy flares. Targeting missiles takes priority over targeting enemy ships or fighters.

In addition, all point defense weapons get the best possible target leading, regardless of combat readiness, and all damage to missiles is increased by 50%. "

ALL point defence weapons, so it also buffs stuff like flak.

Flares from fighters and some ships become pointless, so your PD will never waste time shooting at them, 'best possible target leading' so you are more likely to hit parallel moving missiles and bombs? I guess. and +50% damage to missiles for every damn one of them.

It can be a nice mod if you want to use basic PD, but want them to be better, or to double down on the better PD to make an unyielding destroyer of strikecraft and missiles!
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Tactical laser vs PD laser
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2020, 12:52:39 PM »

I use IPDAI for its +50% damage to missiles and ignoring flares.

Take an Odyssey.  It can mount 12 small energy weapons, so 12 PD lasers for 48 OP, using 480 Flux/second (worth 48 OP in terms of flux vents).  IPDAI costs 20 OP on a capital.  That is effectively adding another 6 PD lasers and up to the equivalent of 24 vents, or in other words 48 OP worth of PD in a missile saturated situation.  If missiles are a problem, its certainly a good deal.  Certainly seems to make Doom mines go pop quickly.

Or take an Onslaught.  For flux reasons, I tend to go with low flux cost weapons, and throw on a lot of PD.  Often something like 6 Flak Cannons and 6 Vulcans.  With the countermeasures skill, the flak basically make reaper salvos disappear, and the flak have enough range to hit sabot fire before they engage the 2nd stage.  IPDAI basically gets you 36 OP worth of Flak and Vulcans, plus 42 OP worth of vents.  Such an Onslaught can take a surprising amount of incoming fire.

If your builds don't need anti-missile PD or are investing very little, then from that perspective it probably isn't worth it.  If you've got an enemy Astral sending Cobras, Tridents and Daggers against your slow capital, it can be worth quite a bit.
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Thaago

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Re: Tactical laser vs PD laser
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2020, 02:51:13 PM »

I consider IPDAI one of the best hullmods to be honest, because it is so transformative in terms of stopping missiles and fighters. It may not have a straight damage bonus vs fighters, but in addition to the obvious shooting down incoming ordinance bring better and ignoring flares, the auto-aim accuracy really helps small mounts to actually hit things.
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Terethall

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Re: Tactical laser vs PD laser
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2020, 02:59:45 PM »

I can see it helping out if you run some kind of dedicated PD boat to help out against fighter/bomber/missile spam. But I've always preferred to just bring interceptors and gain air superiority if I need to worry about enemy fighters/bombers. I often leave small energy slots empty because I can't afford the OP, which I like to spend on fighters, offense, and shields. I guess more generally I don't see much point to PD, since shields stop missiles and ALSO stop ballistics and energy, unlike PD. Interceptors also stop both missiles and enemy fighters and frigates efficiently. And offense is necessary to end the battle. So once I've maxxed out my spark/thunder/xyphos wings, grabbed hardened shields and maxxed caps (along with front shield conversion, which you can't convince me isn't mandatory on every omni-shield ship), and slapped on enough long-range medium and large weapons (with vents) to bring killing power, I don't have anything left for the small mounts, filling which (as Hiruma Kai noted) would cost a minimum of 48 OP (68 with IPDAI) on an Odyssey.
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Goumindong

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Re: Tactical laser vs PD laser
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2020, 05:25:24 PM »

Out of curiosity, is there a situation where IPDAI is really worth the OP cost? I've never found it useful and have basically stopped experimenting with it.

All the time. Its hella good with Vulcan Cannons, LMG, and HMG in particular. Besides the anti-missile advantages the tracking advantages against fighters are HUGE. Fighters are very fast but also pretty consistent in their orbits. As a result weapon tracking makes a significant impact on the ability to hit them. If your tracking is low then you miss behind them like, all the time. If your tracking is "the best possible" then they get killed pretty quick. If your tracking is the best possible and you spend 2/3rds the normal time shooting missiles and you don't get distracted by flares...

Its still very good with laser PD but also good with any small weapon, including Burst PD and IR pulse though generally best with the lowly PD laser. Making them exceptionally efficient at killing missiles.
Any ship that is going to fit 12/24/36/48 OP worth of PD in any combination is generally better off fitting 8/16/24/32 and IPDAI. Even if you're fitting fewer than that the ability to ignore flares can be worth it.
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SapphireSage

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Re: Tactical laser vs PD laser
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2020, 08:06:38 PM »

Since there's a lot of talk about PD weapons here I figure now's a good time to ask.

Does anyone here know for certain if the damage buffing skills (Ordnance Expertise 3, Targeting Analysis, and Advanced Countermeasures 3) increase the effectiveness of EMP weaponry? Specifically if it also helps EMP based PD?

I've been playing as ORA and their PD is the EMP based Choir Emitter, which more disables engines and the warhead then destroying anything. I thought that the skills would help, but from what I found looking through the APIs it implied that Ordnance Expertise 3 did not increase EMP damage and I could not find out for certain with the other two so I was wondering if AC 3 in particular helped EMP based PD weapons.
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Thaago

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Re: Tactical laser vs PD laser
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2020, 08:37:03 PM »

I have absolutely no idea how EMP interacts with skills! Good question!
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Wyvern

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Re: Tactical laser vs PD laser
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2020, 10:40:47 AM »

Hm, that's an interesting question - I believe that the Choir Emitter's ability to EMP missile engines is a scripted effect, rather than something inherent to EMP damage, so the skills won't naturally improve it... on the other hand, it could be scripted to check skills and then adjust the effect?

That said, boosting the Choir Emitter's damage isn't useless, even if it doesn't boost the EMP effect - the more damage it does, the faster it'll actually kill an EMP'd missile, and the sooner it can move on to shooting at the next missile.
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Mondaymonkey

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Re: Tactical laser vs PD laser
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2020, 11:13:19 AM »

If so, I will repeat it here too:

Plasma canon is the best PD ever.

Projectiles able to go through any amount of rockets/fighters, usually instantly frying them. And after all of that - even hit a primary target with all remaining wrath.
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Mondaymonkey

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Re: Tactical laser vs PD laser
« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2020, 11:15:15 AM »

Weird thing. I swear I post that in another thread.
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Tactical laser vs PD laser
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2020, 11:27:00 AM »

I often leave small energy slots empty because I can't afford the OP, which I like to spend on fighters, offense, and shields. I guess more generally I don't see much point to PD, since shields stop missiles and ALSO stop ballistics and energy, unlike PD. Interceptors also stop both missiles and enemy fighters and frigates efficiently. And offense is necessary to end the battle. So once I've maxxed out my spark/thunder/xyphos wings, grabbed hardened shields and maxxed caps (along with front shield conversion, which you can't convince me isn't mandatory on every omni-shield ship), and slapped on enough long-range medium and large weapons (with vents) to bring killing power, I don't have anything left for the small mounts, filling which (as Hiruma Kai noted) would cost a minimum of 48 OP (68 with IPDAI) on an Odyssey.

It just means we have different play styles.  I tend to use the Odyssey as a player flagship, and in Vanilla they're hard enough to come by I usually only have zero or one.  While I might put Front Shield Conversion on an AI Odyssey, I'd never put it on a player run one.  Omni shield lets you raise the shield where you need it, while front shields always start at the front end spread out from there.  As a player, you can be much more aware of the positioning of ships, and avoid or deal with flanks appropriately.  It allows you much greater active flux management.

With player fitting and combat skills, I'd tend to be running ITU, IPDAI, Hardened Shields and Resistant Flux Conduits as my essential hull mods.  Loadout will typically be max Vents, 2 Plasma Cannon, 1 Locust, 12 PD Lasers, and 2 Longbows.  Rest of the few spare OP into capacitors, or maybe I'll switch a PD or two and a few vents for Flux Distributors.  I essentially run few to no extra capacitors on an Odyssey.

However, that is because with proper timing you can dash and vent in the face of enemy capitals and have your omni shield back up enough and in position to absorb more damage.  If you keep repeating that kind of cycle as often as the ship system is up, because of the Odyssey's innately high vent capacity combined with Resistant Flux Conduits and the player venting skill, you can get some really short vent times which in many cases makes your capacity not matter except in the most extreme cases of incoming spike damage.  Alternatively, Odyssey is very good at backing off under its own terms.

I find if I'm fighting fighters, I generally don't want 360 shields, as my hard flux drives up faster.  I'd rather put the shield in the path of the HE bombers, and tank the kinetic/energy weapons from the interceptors for a few second on armor until the PD or Locust do their job.  Interceptors and fighters surround your ship.  Bombers come from the carrier side then retreat.  Also, since I'm generally moving around the enemy fleet ball counter clockwise, friendly fighters simply don't have the range from their carriers to keep up with me, especially if I'm circling to hit Astrals or Moras in the back.

As for PD versus shields effectiveness, I'd rather take ~120 soft flux from my PD lasers firing and destroying a reaper instead of the 2,000 hard flux (or even 900 after hardened shields + skill) from the 4,000 high explosive damage impacting my shield.  In a missile, fighter, or Doom mine heavy situation, I find sufficient PD will tend to outdo shield + capacitors in the long run.  And dual plasma cannon + free sabots from Longbows on request is strong enough to take down any vanilla capital including <redacted>.
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