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Author Topic: For the sake of astronomical justice.  (Read 722 times)

Mondaymonkey

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For the sake of astronomical justice.
« on: June 20, 2020, 12:10:15 PM »

First of all, yes I do understand this is just a game and everything within it is very simplified and approximated.

Issue A, sizes. Yes, I do understand it is impossible to sustain real scale, and all the distances and sizes are very conditional, but all of the celestial bodies have different sizes, peculiar hint for players to understand which objects are bigger than other. But that system have some defects.

Examples:
Achaman. Good white dwarf relative size example.
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Arcadia. Acceptable white dwarf size example.
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Hybrasyl. White dwarfs can not be that big, it's compared to red and orange stars. Same problem with Zagan and randomly generated white dwarfs.
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And, yeah, randomly generated brown dwarfs shouldn't be that big either. Real stars of that type are no much bigger than gas giants. But this is minor issue compared to that white dwarfs on steroids.

Issue B. Damn orbital mechanic. No, I will not whine about elliptic orbits, inclinations and Kepler laws. No.

Black hole orbiting brown dwarf. That sequence of words makes the hair on the back of my head stirring.
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And it is kind of common to have smaller stars in a center of a binary systems.
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Terethall

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Re: For the sake of astronomical justice.
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2020, 12:54:47 PM »

I can see wanting the transitive property to apply to sizes, even if the relative sizing is off, among the color/size classes the game presents. Ditto for a "mass" factor that prevents heavier objects from orbiting lighter ones.
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Goumindong

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Re: For the sake of astronomical justice.
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2020, 01:15:14 PM »

All binary orbits look like either is the primary depending on where you stop :p

Also, nothing preventing a black hole from having less mass than a brown dwarf.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: For the sake of astronomical justice.
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2020, 03:54:12 PM »

Reeeeealy technically, all systems orbit their overall center of mass when viewed from an inertial frame, it's just that if one object is much more massive than the others, then the center of mass of the whole system will be very close to the center of mass of the large object so it appears like the smaller objects are orbiting the larger ones.

From my experience/memory, the binary and trinary star systems appear to do that, so maybe it's just a flavor text issue.
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The Soldier

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Re: For the sake of astronomical justice.
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2020, 04:57:32 PM »

Also, nothing preventing a black hole from having less mass than a brown dwarf.
Theoretically with things like kugleblitz black holes, perhaps.  But stellar-mass black holes are still hugely massive - the smallest staller-mass black hole we've found is at least 3.8x more massive than our own sun.  A brown dwarf just wouldn't be a brown dwarf if it were that massive, it would have enough mass to start fusion and would no longer be considered a brown dwarf.

And while I sympathize with the OP, I understand that it's incredibly difficult to model randomly-created systems that obey gravitational laws on a basic level, and one that covers all the exceptions to the simplified rules (otherwise you'd end up with bland-looking cookie-cutter systems).
« Last Edit: June 20, 2020, 04:59:21 PM by The Soldier »
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Mondaymonkey

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Re: For the sake of astronomical justice.
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2020, 05:11:46 PM »

Also, nothing preventing a black hole from having less mass than a brown dwarf.

Spoiler
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That is theoretical minimum for a black hole.

And the brown dwarfs have theoretical maximum mass.

So, unless black hole is artificial, something prevent it to be less massive.
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Goumindong

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Re: For the sake of astronomical justice.
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2020, 09:14:02 PM »

The upper mass for a neutron star is not the lowest mass for a black hole. And while we have not found any particularly small black holes this isn't terribly surprising. They are after all, both very small, and very dim. And while it seems unlikely that we would find one in binary with another star(for a variety of reasons) this is a video game after all and we can have cool things in it
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The Soldier

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Re: For the sake of astronomical justice.
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2020, 09:47:56 PM »

The upper mass for a neutron star is not the lowest mass for a black hole. And while we have not found any particularly small black holes this isn't terribly surprising. They are after all, both very small, and very dim. And while it seems unlikely that we would find one in binary with another star(for a variety of reasons) this is a video game after all and we can have cool things in it
I don't like being pedantic about this, but you did just change the goalposts from a brown dwarf (in the original post, as well as quotes) to a neutron star.  These objects are, in no exaggeration whatsoever, on opposite ends of the mass spectrum.  One has incredibly low density, temperature, and brightness which is just under the mass limit to fuse hydrogen while the other is literally as dense as the laws of physics allow before collapsing into a black hole, a substance most people refer to as nuetronium these days.

And I do agree, Starsector should have cool things.  But, it would be nice for those cool things to be rooted in reality.  A black hole orbiting a brown dwarf is...not rooted in reality.
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Mondaymonkey

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Re: For the sake of astronomical justice.
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2020, 10:15:48 PM »

The upper mass for a neutron star is not the lowest mass for a black hole. And while we have not found any particularly small black holes this isn't terribly surprising. They are after all, both very small, and very dim. And while it seems unlikely that we would find one in binary with another star(for a variety of reasons) this is a video game after all and we can have cool things in it

You are right. I was not entirely correct. That should be written as: "That is theoretical minimum for a natural black hole as a result of stellar evolution."

Boring words
Smaller black holes can be:

-Initial black holes left from a Big Bang, they could be just like any small. Theoretical entities. If they ever exist, they are probably get some additional mass from that time, which makes them potentially heaviest objects in a Universe. Some scientists consider them as initial seeds for super-massive black holes in a centers of the galaxies. If miracle happen, and some do not get extra mass - they are either microscopical and evaporate for that time, or out of common galaxy lifecycle, as this is the only way not to consume gas and grow. Being out of common cycle means really low chances for stable gravity partnership, i.e. no binary systems or planets.

-Degraded A-1 black holes. Theoretically, black holes losing they mass depending on size, Hoking radiation thing. Absolutely theoretically. Not everyone agreed here. So, neutron star, collapsed into a black hole because of additional captured mass, can loose some weight, if there are no new matter to eat. Eventually, those objects would be smaller than Tolman–Oppenheimer–Volkoff limit, still remaining as black hole. But that is incredibly slow process, even theoretically they are not existed yet from a start of the Big Bang.

-Quantum singularities. Nominally they are black holes, and they are exist almost for sure. Problem is, they are so unstable, that disappear sooner, than able to consume anything and grow to macro-sizes.

-Artificial black holes. There are no mass limitation, if you force matter to collapse artificially. Only barrier - tech required. But those objects are made for purpose and will not spontaneously spawn in a random not colonized system. And yes, creation purpose should exist.

-Yet unknown natural physical process. I mean, SS have a hyperspase and gates - same "yet unknown" category. If SS contains that black holes, isn't it should be described somewhere? That is almost a fiction rule. Aragorn was not wearing pants, because Tolkien never mention he was.
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I agree, that searching a low-mass black holes is extremely hard task, if they exist. And there are no surprise we haven't discover them yet. On the other hand, we didn't discover a Russell's teapot either.
Spoiler
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Quote
you did just change the goalposts from a brown dwarf (in the original post, as well as quotes) to a neutron star.  These objects are, in no exaggeration whatsoever, on opposite ends of the mass spectrum.

He didn't, actually. Link I posted related to a neutron star upper limit.
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Goumindong

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Re: For the sake of astronomical justice.
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2020, 10:46:39 PM »

I agree, that searching a low-mass black holes is extremely hard task, if they exist. And there are no surprise we haven't discover them yet. On the other hand, we didn't discover a Russell's teapot either.

Seems incredibly more unlikely than a small black hole on the other hand. And also harder to spot...

More or less i was expressing that i am totally OK with weird and unlikely things. It is, after all, not a simulation.
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TJJ

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Re: For the sake of astronomical justice.
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2020, 03:14:09 AM »

Nothing wrong with a primordial black hole orbiting a brown dwarf.
For all we know, planet 9 of our own solar system maybe a primordial black hole!

Good spot with the white dwarf radii though.
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Mondaymonkey

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Re: For the sake of astronomical justice.
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2020, 03:30:48 AM »

1. As was mentioned, initial black holes have little chances to gain stable orbit in such systems. Requires to be captured, and that is tricky gravity thing, which became even trickier due event horizon existed in body system.

2. It's description says it was a massive star.
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ubuntufreakdragon

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Re: For the sake of astronomical justice.
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2020, 05:04:19 AM »

If a fleet gets too close to the black hole it will receive the same effects as usual implicating the black hole has quite some mass, at least more than a pathetic brown dwarf.

How expensive would it be to launch a tea pot into an orbit between Earth and Mars? (Just for Fun)

Technical solution: Generate black hole only as primary star.
Elaborate solution: Every Star Type gets a mass class (an integer) and can only be a secondary star if the primary star has the same or a greater class.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2020, 05:09:39 AM by ubuntufreakdragon »
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TerranEmpire

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Re: For the sake of astronomical justice.
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2020, 06:33:28 AM »

If a fleet gets too close to the black hole it will receive the same effects as usual implicating the black hole has quite some mass, at least more than a pathetic brown dwarf.

How expensive would it be to launch a tea pot into an orbit between Earth and Mars? (Just for Fun)

Technical solution: Generate black hole only as primary star.
Elaborate solution: Every Star Type gets a mass class (an integer) and can only be a secondary star if the primary star has the same or a greater class.

I couldn't agree more.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2020, 06:35:09 AM by TerranEmpire »
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SCC

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Re: For the sake of astronomical justice.
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2020, 11:45:22 AM »

Currently we have some stars that feel large (though not quite as large as they could get in real life), but it would be nice to get some exotic, miniature stars, too. They truly are bizarre at times.
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