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Author Topic: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list  (Read 14066 times)

Megas

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Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
« Reply #75 on: June 18, 2020, 03:58:58 PM »

Radiant is overpowered at 40 DP.  If I get Automated Ships, it would be solely to put Radiant in my fleet.  Otherwise, I rather have three permamods instead of two from the other tech 5 skill.  (I might still even take three permamods over Radiant - never enough OP.)
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Eji1700

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Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
« Reply #76 on: June 18, 2020, 06:42:55 PM »

Everyone has different definitions of broken which often muddles things.

For all intents and purposes a paragon basically ends the game currently.  If you get one it's trivial to load it up with an even half decent loadout and steamroll almost all the remaining content.  Is that "broken?"...i dunno...probably not.  There's obviously supposed to be an average player path through the game, and it ends with something like a paragon taking down stations and fleets.  Does it have flaws?  Sure...but the amount they actually matter in vanilla is pretty minor given that nothing in the base game actually exploits them.

That said, is it too good?  I think so, but i'm also highly in favor of stretching out the early and middle game as they have some really interesting choices that don't get emphasized because of how easy it is to skip them, especially once you know what you're doing.  I also have to fight the urge to just mass produce them the moment I get a colony that can because...well why not?  Same issue with other ships that appear to be above curve (drover being an obvious outlier because it's clearly not supposed to be that game warping).
So wait you're telling me the most expensive ship in the game is better than everything else the player can get? Why that's preposterous!! It's 60 goddamn DP, basically a battleship and a half if you look at other examples. If hypothetically speaking, we had a capital that's maybe 70 DP or even more, would you call that thing broken because it's stronger than other ships? Hopefully this Paragon circlejerk will stop once we'll be able to get Radiants in our fleets.

@Daynen
It was hard putting both Mk II capitals on my list because they're both good for their DP but the campaign stats absolutely kill them and make them unwanted. Atlas Mk II just dies to a sneeze while being awfully slow so that's another reason why some people put it so low. It's like a glass cannon but one that has been tied to a tree like a pinata.
If money were actually a real limitation the fact that it's the most expensive ship might matter, but I can't even remember the last time I bought a paragon from a shipyard, and if you're capable of building one at a colony you're capable of affording it. 

If you want to i'd guess that you can have a kitted out paragon in a couple of hours of gameplay max, with a lot of that just being travel time.

DP is a much more significant limitation and part of why i don't think it's broken, and had you bothered actually reading what I wrote it's why I think it would be better to find ways to stretch out the early and mid game, so other ships get a chance to shine, rather than nerf the paragon in any way shape or form.
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Megas

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Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
« Reply #77 on: June 18, 2020, 07:00:22 PM »

I understood "most expensive ship" as in DP cost, not credits.  60 DP is a lot compared to most capitals' 40 DP.  AI Paragon seems to be worth about a capital and a cruiser, maybe.  Player might be able to do evil things with it.
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FooF

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Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
« Reply #78 on: June 19, 2020, 08:25:15 AM »

To put it into perspective, under reasonable odds (i.e. not absurdly overextending yourself), I can't recall ever losing a Paragon in major fleet actions. Granted, it was officer'd (probably level 20) and had a custom loadout but the AI does extremely well with it. Post-battle analysis usually has an AI-piloted Paragon near the top of the kill/damage list. I have lost other Capitals, though, in large battles and against Stations. 60 DP is expensive but, at least in my experience, I know I won't lose it. Even against huge Ordos, I don't worry about the Paragon.

Non-Paragon chat:

What ship do you think has the most longevity in your fleet? As in, if you picked it up early game, you might still reasonably use it late game?

Apogee is probably #1 for me. Never mind being able to acquire it at quick-start, it is generally useful throughout the entire game in combat and for its logistic bonuses.

#2 is the Tempest. Crushes other Frigates early, excellent harasser in mid-game and superb anti-fighter late-game (though I do have to retreat it at a low CR). Even without officers, they do well.

#3 is a tie between Hammerhead and Sunder. Both are able to punch at Cruiser levels for brief moments and they typically can stay out of harms way, or at least defend themselves against heavier opponents. Super late-game they lose their luster but they are always welcome fire support options. They're also great for auto-resolve or pursuit situations.

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Igncom1

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Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
« Reply #79 on: June 19, 2020, 08:35:18 AM »

Non-Paragon chat:

What ship do you think has the most longevity in your fleet? As in, if you picked it up early game, you might still reasonably use it late game?

Apogee is probably #1 for me. Never mind being able to acquire it at quick-start, it is generally useful throughout the entire game in combat and for its logistic bonuses.

#2 is the Tempest. Crushes other Frigates early, excellent harasser in mid-game and superb anti-fighter late-game (though I do have to retreat it at a low CR). Even without officers, they do well.

#3 is a tie between Hammerhead and Sunder. Both are able to punch at Cruiser levels for brief moments and they typically can stay out of harms way, or at least defend themselves against heavier opponents. Super late-game they lose their luster but they are always welcome fire support options. They're also great for auto-resolve or pursuit situations.


The sunder. Early on it packs a heavy punch with a fairly wide range of loadouts that'll do great VS pirates. (I don't often stray on my builds, but they can do a lot of work with three medium energy weapons, or beams, or even insane SO loadouts and I don't even use the small ballistics for railguns!)

Late game it still can pack decent fire-power while also being cheap like most destroyers to repair/replace.

As this game favours ships with forward fire-power over anything with a broadside, sunders are perhaps the quintessential gunboat. If an overly specialized one.
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Grievous69

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Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
« Reply #80 on: June 19, 2020, 08:39:21 AM »

What ship do you think has the most longevity in your fleet? As in, if you picked it up early game, you might still reasonably use it late game?
Well aside from Drover being the obvious choice, Heron is pretty damn useful whatever you'll end up doing. I agree with Sunder but I also want to add the Eagles, those things are so damn reliable in AI hands, only dying when you majorly screw something up.
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Megas

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Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
« Reply #81 on: June 19, 2020, 09:05:55 AM »

Re: Paragon
I lose them sometimes in tough Ordos fights.  They last longer than Onslaught or Conquest, but can be overwhelmed and killed.  Radiants are evil.  Against human factions, their fleets are weak enough that it does not matter much.  Just about any proper battleship in numbers will steamroll them.  (Onslaught spam, used as two-in-one marine transport and battleship, can rollover fights in core systems without incident.)  The only human fight that can be a bit hard is high-tech star fortress because of mine spam drawing first blood before my ships get in range to shoot back.

Quote
What ship do you think has the most longevity in your fleet? As in, if you picked it up early game, you might still reasonably use it late game?
Apogee.  I can start with one, and I keep one all the way to the final endgame fleet.
Colossus 3.  I raid a lot, and I often deploy it in auto-resolved pursuits, where it is risk-free.
Shepherd.  Useful in the first few fights, then I keep it for campaign bonuses and/or auto-resolve pursuits.

Just about every other ship I acquire early is whatever pirates drop, and they get phased out during midgame as expeditions and/or bounties drop bigger and better ships.  Then, once my colonies can defend themselves and I have a nanoforge, I start stealing more blueprints and building more ships.
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Thaago

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Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
« Reply #82 on: June 19, 2020, 11:02:54 AM »

...
Non-Paragon chat:

What ship do you think has the most longevity in your fleet? As in, if you picked it up early game, you might still reasonably use it late game?

...

This is completely by accident, and not what I wanted to happen, it just happened: The Centurion.

Yes, the little dinky frigate thats not anywhere near anyone's top of the tier list has stayed with me from the very start of a campaign all the way through multi ordo fights. I bought it for being cheap tough gun frigates to help me in early game and then it just refused. To. Die. I've used Omens and Tempests in the same fleet, and while they have that sweet system/offense they both have a tendency to... pop. Meanwhile I watched my Centurion about to get hit by a reaper with shields down and high flux, began to say F in my head, and then was shocked when it slapped on its system and tanked the hit. (Granted it was damaged enough that I retreated it, but still!)

I don't feel any need to really bump against the 30 ship limit in order to kill everything, so this little frigate just hangs out in my fleet. I deploy it whenever there is room (its only 4 DP) and it putters around as an escort/killing fighters/distracting the enemy. I've got a kinetic, an HE, an ion cannon on it, and a reaper, so it is a pretty reasonable little combatant that can help against larger enemies by disabling, shoots down fighters and missiles pretty well when they come nearby, and I cheer every time it sinks its reaper into a cruiser or battlecruiser. It basically became the fleet mascot.

So... while I still wouldn't put the Centurion at the top of the tier list, I have a great fondness for them and consider them useful at every stage.
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Eji1700

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Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
« Reply #83 on: June 19, 2020, 11:58:13 AM »

...
Non-Paragon chat:

What ship do you think has the most longevity in your fleet? As in, if you picked it up early game, you might still reasonably use it late game?

...

This is completely by accident, and not what I wanted to happen, it just happened: The Centurion.

Yes, the little dinky frigate thats not anywhere near anyone's top of the tier list has stayed with me from the very start of a campaign all the way through multi ordo fights. I bought it for being cheap tough gun frigates to help me in early game and then it just refused. To. Die. I've used Omens and Tempests in the same fleet, and while they have that sweet system/offense they both have a tendency to... pop. Meanwhile I watched my Centurion about to get hit by a reaper with shields down and high flux, began to say F in my head, and then was shocked when it slapped on its system and tanked the hit. (Granted it was damaged enough that I retreated it, but still!)

I don't feel any need to really bump against the 30 ship limit in order to kill everything, so this little frigate just hangs out in my fleet. I deploy it whenever there is room (its only 4 DP) and it putters around as an escort/killing fighters/distracting the enemy. I've got a kinetic, an HE, an ion cannon on it, and a reaper, so it is a pretty reasonable little combatant that can help against larger enemies by disabling, shoots down fighters and missiles pretty well when they come nearby, and I cheer every time it sinks its reaper into a cruiser or battlecruiser. It basically became the fleet mascot.

So... while I still wouldn't put the Centurion at the top of the tier list, I have a great fondness for them and consider them useful at every stage.

Any ship with a damper filed is amazing in AI hands, and almost always worth having in your fleet.  The AI gets crazy level usage out of the damper field and is one of the few shining points of sticking to low tech.
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FooF

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Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
« Reply #84 on: June 19, 2020, 12:26:23 PM »

Centurion really is a good ship that kind of gets lost in the shuffle. It's no Monitor but for a frigate it is very tough. It's not particularly fast but fast enough to outrun what is strong enough to kill it but tough enough to outlast faster ships. I use them from time to time, and like Thaago, find it interesting how well they take care of themselves.
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Grievous69

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Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
« Reply #85 on: June 19, 2020, 01:49:05 PM »

Yes, the little dinky frigate thats not anywhere near anyone's top of the tier list has stayed with me from the very start of a campaign all the way through multi ordo fights.
*looks at my tier list* > literally the first ship in A tier. I'm a no one :'(
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Thaago

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Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
« Reply #86 on: June 19, 2020, 09:12:42 PM »

I think it means that you must just be lonely in your genius. :p
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SCC

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Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
« Reply #87 on: June 19, 2020, 11:19:48 PM »

It's the first ship listed in my "good, but not broken" category as well. It's not underappreciated, merely boring and practical. It does what you require of it and does it well.
What ship do you think has the most longevity in your fleet? As in, if you picked it up early game, you might still reasonably use it late game?
Besides ships with logistic advantages (Apogee, Shepherd, freighters, tankers), it would either be Hammerhead or Conquest. Hammerhead is easy to acquire early on and will last for some time. Conquest is harder to get, but it will serve me until the very end of the game.

Megas

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Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
« Reply #88 on: June 20, 2020, 06:14:37 AM »

Centurion is good if I get one early enough (I guess, Hammerhead start).  Problem is that basic fighting frigates (Lasher, Centurion, Wolf, and the like) are obsolete past the first two systems (Galatia and Corvus) due to low PPT, and the smallest ship I use from that point on are destroyers, once I get enough Enforcers, Mules, and Shrikes from pirates.  Warfarer is sad, always the first to die in Apogee starts, and useless at fighting from the very start.  Wayfarer was decent during 0.7.2, but now it does not have what it takes to fight in modern releases.

Hammerhead is good, but becomes obsolete eventually.  The only loadout that is overpowered is the Safety Override one, and that has low PPT.  The non-SO loadouts are nothing remarkable and are not strong enough to cut it late in the game.

I like Conquest, but it is not something I get early.  The earliest I get it is looting one from an expedition fleet and/or named bounty during the midgame.  Later, I eventually build a pristine one.  Conquest blueprint is the easiest capital blueprint to steal (thanks New Maxios), but it may be a while before I get a forge and Heavy Industry.  Conquest is part of my endgame fleet.  It is handy for times when 60 DP (Paragon) costs too much but Conquest can get the job done.
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FooF

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Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
« Reply #89 on: June 20, 2020, 08:48:22 AM »

One of my favorite Hammerhead loadouts late-game (that doesn't require an officer to be effective), is Dual Heavy Mortar, Dual Light Needlers, Dual Vulcans in the back, Two Reapers and then Converted Hangars with Thunders. Throw ITU and Resistant Flux Conduits on there (rest are Vents) and it can really take care of itself. Alternatively, do the same weapon loadout but drop the fighters and add Hardened Subsystems and Reinforced Bulkheads to give it more longevity.
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