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Author Topic: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list  (Read 14071 times)

Igncom1

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Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
« Reply #60 on: June 17, 2020, 02:38:06 PM »

FooF, I'd call Omen S tier for late game (ant tournaments...) because its arguably equal to the tempest in value (just a very different role), but is only 5 DP instead of 8. In an endgame battle where the player is DP limited that matters a surprising amount. It can pretty easily have 10k shield hitpoints in a 360 bubble, making it significantly tankier than a Tempest as long as it doesn't get hit with shield piercing weapons, and as you said murders fighters and can disable bigger ships. Best bang for buck anti-fighter in the game, has improved sensors, ECM built it, and is cheap. And in late game fights I don't really need Tempests - they don't have long enough PPT and are liable to get popped, plus cost the same DP as a Shrike which is more reliable - but I do need anti-fighter/lockdown escort frigates.

In parts of the game where the Tempest still shines, I'd call it significantly better than an Omen - in those stages I'd put omen at A.

I just wish they could last a little longer in combat before being murdered by the lack of combat readiness.
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Maeleth

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Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
« Reply #61 on: June 17, 2020, 03:56:35 PM »

I just wish they could last a little longer in combat before being murdered by the lack of combat readiness.

Hardened Subsystems plus an officer with CE3 gives you 315 sec of top performance. And a few extra minutes, until initial 100% CR ticks down below 20%. This is usually enough to secure a victory and hit "retreat" on smaller ships or lose said ships because you're overwhelmed by endless waves of enemies.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
« Reply #62 on: June 17, 2020, 04:07:52 PM »

Are people really putting officers on Omens in late game? Maybe this is a battle size thing, but all my officers are on cruisers or larger.
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Maeleth

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Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
« Reply #63 on: June 17, 2020, 04:21:53 PM »

Are people really putting officers on Omens in late game?
Frigates tend to pop out of existence without one. Even Omen, at least in modded game. It's not like you can deploy 10 capitals/cruisers simultaneously, might as well make those little bathtubs as effective as possible.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
« Reply #64 on: June 17, 2020, 04:27:52 PM »

On battle size 500, you can definitely deploy 10 cruisers. Even if I only deploy 6-8 officers in big ships, I want my other 2-4 in cruisers in case I need to reinforce or fight a round 2. Maybe if I could move officers around mid-battle/in deployment, I might consider putting officers on smaller ships and then moving them to other ships for the 2nd wave, but with the current system, I stop putting officers in anything smaller than a cruiser by late-mid game. Maybe a few in destroyers if I am running a light fleet, but certainly not in multiple frigates.
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TaLaR

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Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
« Reply #65 on: June 17, 2020, 04:30:19 PM »

Frigates tend to pop out of existence without one. Even Omen, at least in modded game. It's not like you can deploy 10 capitals/cruisers simultaneously, might as well make those little bathtubs as effective as possible.

At battlesize 500 you have 200-300 DP to use. For 10 officers + player deployment even for minimum 200 DP, average ship is at least a cruiser. It's not like having exactly 200 is that optimal either - reserves are nice to have when you need to grind down multiple expeditions/etc.
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Maeleth

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Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
« Reply #66 on: June 17, 2020, 04:54:33 PM »

At battlesize 500 you have 200-300 DP to use. For 10 officers + player deployment even for minimum 200 DP, average ship is at least a cruiser. It's not like having exactly 200 is that optimal either - reserves are nice to have when you need to grind down multiple expeditions/etc.
I prefer 400 and small-ish fleets, which usually means being heavily outnumbered. My usual setup is AI Paragon, hyperagressive Onslaught with all de dakka, plus some carriers/missile boats and a bit of pocket change aka frigs. So yeah, in my case 10 officers is almost overkill  ;D
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Daynen

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Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
« Reply #67 on: June 17, 2020, 05:48:16 PM »

Atlas mkII is F tier?  Someone has never experienced the glory of two ammo fed mjolnirs with two locusts backing them up... ;D
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Grievous69

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Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
« Reply #68 on: June 18, 2020, 12:50:39 AM »

Everyone has different definitions of broken which often muddles things.

For all intents and purposes a paragon basically ends the game currently.  If you get one it's trivial to load it up with an even half decent loadout and steamroll almost all the remaining content.  Is that "broken?"...i dunno...probably not.  There's obviously supposed to be an average player path through the game, and it ends with something like a paragon taking down stations and fleets.  Does it have flaws?  Sure...but the amount they actually matter in vanilla is pretty minor given that nothing in the base game actually exploits them.

That said, is it too good?  I think so, but i'm also highly in favor of stretching out the early and middle game as they have some really interesting choices that don't get emphasized because of how easy it is to skip them, especially once you know what you're doing.  I also have to fight the urge to just mass produce them the moment I get a colony that can because...well why not?  Same issue with other ships that appear to be above curve (drover being an obvious outlier because it's clearly not supposed to be that game warping).
So wait you're telling me the most expensive ship in the game is better than everything else the player can get? Why that's preposterous!! It's 60 goddamn DP, basically a battleship and a half if you look at other examples. If hypothetically speaking, we had a capital that's maybe 70 DP or even more, would you call that thing broken because it's stronger than other ships? Hopefully this Paragon circlejerk will stop once we'll be able to get Radiants in our fleets.

@Daynen
It was hard putting both Mk II capitals on my list because they're both good for their DP but the campaign stats absolutely kill them and make them unwanted. Atlas Mk II just dies to a sneeze while being awfully slow so that's another reason why some people put it so low. It's like a glass cannon but one that has been tied to a tree like a pinata.
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TaLaR

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Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
« Reply #69 on: June 18, 2020, 07:50:58 AM »

Hopefully this Paragon circlejerk will stop once we'll be able to get Radiants in our fleets.

If I remember right, it would only be a single not-player-pilotable Radiant with low max CR at best. If Radiant also gets a DP nerf (40 is ridiculously cheap for a ship arguably stronger than Paragon), it may end up mostly useless to player.
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Megas

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Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
« Reply #70 on: June 18, 2020, 09:28:13 AM »

Hopefully this Paragon circlejerk will stop once we'll be able to get Radiants in our fleets.

If I remember right, it would only be a single not-player-pilotable Radiant with low max CR at best. If Radiant also gets a DP nerf (40 is ridiculously cheap for a ship arguably stronger than Paragon), it may end up mostly useless to player.
I remember something like that too.

Plus, it requires a tech 5 Automated Ships skill, and the other tech 5 skill raises the max permamod limit from two to three.  I wonder if the permamod (or bring Radiant) skill is one of the few that cannot be re-specced.  Assuming I want to raise tech to 5 to being with.

Also, I wonder if putting cores into human ships requires that skill to use.
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Grievous69

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Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
« Reply #71 on: June 18, 2020, 09:42:36 AM »

Yeah I know all of that, I was simply pointing out that once the new update comes, people will whine about other things. You'll be seeing posts like ''Once you get Tech 5 and find a Radiant, the game becomes too easy, you just win.'' And as long as the reduced CR doesn't go in the malfunction side, it's still gonna be scary, even when AI piloted.
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FooF

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Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
« Reply #72 on: June 18, 2020, 12:56:59 PM »

The Radiant is great battleship, not doubt, but it has a different niche than the Paragon. It's more of a high-tech Onslaught that is all about frontal firepower with some mobility. I wouldn't use it to spearhead an assault on a Station or other hard target. What it does have in droves over the Paragon is a more reasonable logistical profile. 40 DP is great for a ship of that caliber (assuming that doesn't change).

Even if you can't directly control it, the Radiant is S-tier for its insane firepower and absurd flux stats but it definitely has some exploitable weaknesses. I wouldn't call it an end-all-be-all ship. The Paragon's only real weakness is its speed and insane deploy cost.
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Grievous69

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Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
« Reply #73 on: June 18, 2020, 12:59:25 PM »

The Paragon's only real weakness is its speed and insane deploy cost.
And that's why it's not S tier, unlike some other problematic ships.
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SCC

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Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
« Reply #74 on: June 18, 2020, 01:42:55 PM »

Paragon is the only ship capable of destroying all the stations in the game in player hands. Though it's probably less efficient than using phase ships for the jobs, but since I don't use them, I don't know for sure.
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