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Author Topic: Tutorial is weird with some starts  (Read 973 times)

Grievous69

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Tutorial is weird with some starts
« on: June 05, 2020, 11:57:31 AM »

I don't know if this has been mentioned anywhere or is being worked on but currently the tutorial assumes you chose either the first or second starting option. I payed no attention to this since obviously I know how to play the game so I just skipped it. But a friend of mine just got into the game, and he chose the randomized option. What happens in the end is that pretty much everything in the tutorial runs away from you, he was kinda confused on what was going on. And then you get asked to recover even more ships which then makes a small-ish fleet pretty damn big for just starting out. Managing logistics is hard for new players, it's even harder when you just came in Corvus with 3 destroyers and some frigates.

No idea what would the ideal solution be here, locking some choices for first time players, tutorial adjustments based on what start is chosen, idk. It just makes the first experience weird if the player chooses a start that's not a single combat frigate.

P.S. I almost forgot the hilarious interaction where he tried to ''sneak in'' the pirate base with a big fleet and couldn't get close without being detected. When he closed in the pirates just ran away... so much for the sneaking part of the game.
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TerranEmpire

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Grievous69

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Re: Tutorial is weird with some starts
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2020, 12:21:33 AM »

Well thanks for reminding me about that awful video, but I don't see how that's connected with what I wrote. Besides that ''exploit'' is already fixed in the dev version.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2020, 06:42:30 AM by Grievous69 »
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TerranEmpire

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Re: Tutorial is weird with some starts
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2020, 05:19:18 AM »

Still, it's funny.
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Crimson Sky Gaurdian

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Re: Tutorial is weird with some starts
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2020, 06:37:10 AM »

awful
You keep using that word; I do not think it means what you think it means.
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Grievous69

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Re: Tutorial is weird with some starts
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2020, 07:08:03 AM »

You're right, it's not awful, it' fascinating. Fascinating how a 40 minute video shows not even 10% of the game without any knowledge while doing the most boring thing over and over again. If I never knew about this game, and then saw his vid, I would be very turned off by the "game".
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TerranEmpire

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Re: Tutorial is weird with some starts
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2020, 07:22:45 AM »

No, it's not true.
I found the game bcs of this "awful" video.
I think you don't really understand why this game is engaging for some and not for others.
If you like the genre an exploit won't stop you from trying it.
EVERY game has exploits.
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Grievous69

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Re: Tutorial is weird with some starts
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2020, 07:36:10 AM »

Dude you're missing the point. You can make the worst possible video about a game and if you have any subscribers it's gonna reach SOME. But the better the video showcases the game, the larger percentsge will be attracted.

Look I'm still glad the video exists, it brought more people. But it's unfortunate that because of him lots of players were stuck in the tutorial forever and had different expactations for the game. Let's not derail the topic anymore please.
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Crimson Sky Gaurdian

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Re: Tutorial is weird with some starts
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2020, 07:38:35 AM »

Fascinating how a 40 minute video shows not even 10% of the game
I know right? It's almost like it's not designed to be an introduction to the game.
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Serenitis

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Re: Tutorial is weird with some starts
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2020, 01:47:12 PM »

Might be worth considering changing the ordering/branching of the new game options.

When starting a new game you could choose to activate the tutorial as the very first option, and only have the "balanced" small starts available if it has been chosen.
If the player chooses to not run the tutorial, you can just give them all the available start options and let them get on with it.
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Grievous69

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Re: Tutorial is weird with some starts
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2020, 02:29:15 AM »

https://old.reddit.com/r/starsector/comments/hgqajy/help_me_im_given_too_much_freedom_in_this_game/

Yet another player who's completely confused seeing all the pirates run away, when the tutorial clearly says you'll have to fight it out. He picked the Apogee start btw. In case it's too tricky to balance tutorial fleets based on your choice, then I'd go with Serenitis' suggestion to disable the faster starts (and the randomized one) when going with the tutorial. Now that I think about it, tutorial already gives you free ships, makes no sense to have such big fleets when just starting out.
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pairedeciseaux

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Re: Tutorial is weird with some starts
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2020, 07:10:02 AM »

Ok, first let's have a look at the current vanilla Starsector starting options.

Spoiler

Your most recent occupation was as...

1. A bounty hunter, commanding a Wolf-class frigate
2. A scavenger, commanding a Wayfarer-class combat freighter
3. An explorer, leading a salvage expedition from aboard an Apogee-class cruiser (faster start)
4. A mercenary, leading a small force from aboard a Hammerhead-class destroyer (faster start)
5. A freelancer, doing whatever jobs you've been able to fing (randomized start)

---

Select the campaign difficulty level. "Easy" is recommended for a first-time player.

1. Normal
2. Easy

---

1. Start the tutorial!
2. Skip it

[close]

I was curious about this, so I've just done a short run using the "explorer" start. TL;DR ... works as intended, easier/faster than both "bounty hunter" and "scavenger" starting options.

Spoiler
The initial fleet had 1 Apogee, 1 Condor, 1 Wayfarer, 1 Shepherd, 1 Dram. And yes, doing the tutorial helped add more ships to the fleet : 1 Condor, 1 Hammerhead, 1 Wolf, 1 Kite, 1 Dram, 1 Shepherd, 1 small additionnal freighter. IIRC.

Please note I am a "bounty hunter / Wolf start" kind of player, so I'm not used to have a cruiser in my fleet so early.

The very first encounter is a single pirate ship that intercepts your fleet. Easy battle.

Next encounter, your fleet goes dark so you can reach the agent in the mining station. Indeed the other fleet detects yours and avoid any encounter. Works as intended.

Then you need to repair/clear the jump point. I was able to catch one fleet first try with sustained burn off and without using emergency burn. Since the second fleet was close it joined the battle. Overall easy battle (granted I'm not a beginner). I would argue that part is harder with a small fleet (bounty hunter start or scavenger start) because the tutorial encourages the player to separate the two pirate fleets in order to fight them one fleet at a time. It is IMO a very good thing to learn this trick in the tutorial. With the largish fleet I can just engage without worrying.

Then I went to Jangala, and was able to catch one small pirate fleet using emergency burn. Easy battle.

At this point I have a few options (several bounties, one exploration mission, random exploration/salvaging/surveying, ...). And I have fuel, supplies, and cash. Small pirate/pather/salvaging fleets won't chase mine, so going in/out of systems is easier. Works as intended.

If player goes astray for long periods at any point during/after the tutorial, he sure will have logistic issues. But I suspect those issues would show up even faster with the small fleet start, because you then have less supplies, less fuel, less salvaging power, less cargo space, ... Anyway that is something player needs to learn: managing ressources is important. So, again, works as intented.
[close]

Now let's have a look at this:

https://old.reddit.com/r/starsector/comments/hgqajy/help_me_im_given_too_much_freedom_in_this_game/

Spoiler
Okay. So the player is confused because, as he explains, the game gives him a lot of freedom.

Yet another player who's completely confused seeing all the pirates run away, when the tutorial clearly says you'll have to fight it out.

That's not how I read it.

Actually, the tutorial does not "clearly says you'll have to fight it out". It's more like "rogue miner fleets are guarding both jump points, your task is to stabilise inner jump point, 2 fleets are guarding it, battle is expected". Neither the task nor the optional battle(s) are mandatory to play Starsector. Performing the task is required in order to progress in the tutorial.

You are the first to mention "the pirates will just run away from you" in the reddit thread. The closest thing he mentioned is "Fighting the pirates was completely optional". In my book "optional" does not imply "confusing". Maybe he was just surprised that the game did not enforce combat. Player with narrow expectations vs. large freedom allowed by the game?

He picked the Apogee start btw.

That's not how I read it.

You are the first to mention the Apogee in the reddit thread. When you asked him what start he did choose, he answered "I chose the faster start option. Specifically, the scavenger one.". He never mentioned Apogee. Since "scavenger" start is start option 2 and is not tagged as "faster start" (start options 3 and 4 are the ones tagged as "faster start"), it is not really clear what was his starting fleet. Maybe he was already confused having so much options right after pressing the "New Game" button. My point being: that's just speculation until the player clarifies what his starting fleet really was.

Now that I think about it, tutorial already gives you free ships, makes no sense to have such big fleets when just starting out.

Isn't it precicely the point of a "faster start" ? It helps player avoid a few hours of grind using a small fleet, if they so wish. With the faster start, the game is much more open right at the beginning, it makes sense for a sandbox-type game. That's not how I play as I much prefer starting with a Wolf, but I like that the option is here.

[close]

Finally, concerning the "smaller fleets will flee / bigger fleets will pursue" dichotomy - that's what we are talking about, right? :) - IMO:
  • In the current version, player will learn this sooner or later.
  • Is this confusing to new players? Maybe.
  • Could the tutorial explain this better? Probably. How?
  • Player would then need to see both sides. And have very explicit dialogues with an NPC about what's going on. And practice.
  • I'm not sure burn speed and its implications are fully explained in the tutorial.
  • Currently, IIRC, the tutorial explains/mentions how to use sustained burn as a way to travel faster.
  • Currently, IIRC, the tutorial explains/mentions how to use emergency burn as a way to avoid encounters.
  • The tutorial could explain fleets have different burn speeds.
  • Maybe the tutorial could teach how to use emergency burn and/or sustained burn as ways to force encounter with a fleeing fleet. Even if said fleet has a higher burn speed than player fleet.
  • Teach with practice, of course, so you'd have to put the player in a situation where he must catch a fast fleeing fleet in order to complete one of the tutorial quests.
  • This specific point is important because once mastered it opens up bounty hunting of faster fleets, which is one reliable way to progress early game whatever starting option the player chose and whatever its progress is.
  • Also this reinforce the feeling that the player is in charge of the destiny of its fleet.
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Grievous69

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Re: Tutorial is weird with some starts
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2020, 07:44:31 AM »

Man you put too much effort into a troll post (at least it seems like that to me)... But what the hell, I'll bite anyway, maybe you just have problems with English.

So first the mining station, in what way does it work as intended? You're given the Go dark ability, specifically said ''you'll need to sneak in'', and you say pirates running away at the sight of you is normal? This is where I thought you were just joking.

You proved yourself wrong the moment you said you engaged both fleets at once. You even said it's an important skill to learn to separate fleets, which you WON'T learn if you already have a strong fleet capable of destroying both of those fleets blindfolded.

Yet again you call something working as intended. Your logic that small fleets will burn through logistics as fast as a cruiser fleet is astounding. No, the player is not supposed to learn to manage cruisers first thing after the tutorial, he's supposed to slowly learn the game and it's mechanics. With a big fleet you're more pushed to earn money fast.

So you think tutorial giving you bunch of ships and weapons is a sign you DON'T have to fight anyone? Yeah mate, brilliant.

I was the first to mention pirates running away because that's what it means to be optional. If they just went for you as soon as they see you then that's not really optional isn't it?

Please pick one of the frigate starts and then tell me the two pirate fleets at the jump point run away from you, go on. I know he picked that start, he didn't have to say it specifically.

I said faster starts WITH tutorial don't make sense. If you've already completed it then yea, ofc it makes sense to have faster starts.


NOTE: If I sound annoyed at you then you're absolutely correct because I've already heard dozens of similar experiences where players were lost in the tutorial. So your whole ''oh i didn't read it that way'', ''you're just speculating'' and the worst of all ''it works as intended'' came across as incredibly obnoxious and ignorant since there are clear problems with the tutorial. If it were perfect there wouldn't be basic gameplay mechanics questions on a daily basis (and most of them repeat super often). And also a couple of people that I know that asked me ''what the *** am I supposed to do now?'' and ''what does this do/mean?'' multiple times.
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pairedeciseaux

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Re: Tutorial is weird with some starts
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2020, 10:27:02 AM »

Grevious69, sorry if my previous message did upset you. Let's try to look at the big picture.

So first the mining station, in what way does it work as intended?

Smaller fleet will flee from player fleet. Works as intented. It's not a bug, it's a feature. Confusing for a new player? Maybe.

You even said it's an important skill to learn to separate fleets, which you WON'T learn if you already have a strong fleet capable of destroying both of those fleets blindfolded.

Sure. Another way to view it could be: the tutorial didn't put player's largish fleet in a situation were it would have to flee or separate superior opponents. Looking at it this way, maybe something is missing from the tutorial.

Your logic that small fleets will burn through logistics as fast as a cruiser fleet is astounding.

The largish fleet will certainly use more ressources than the smallish fleet. But what matter here is not the amount of ressources consumed. What IMO matter is the game time and travel distance provided by available ressources. If player has enough resources to explore systems at the edge of the sector and come back, all in relative safety, right at the end of the tutorial, then it's easier than with the smallish fleet where this is not really possible.

This is a game design decision, and it's implementation right in the start options. It helps player, new or experienced, to obtain the game's goodies faster. Optional faster start.

And again, this is not the way I play, but I think it is a good option.

So you think tutorial giving you bunch of ships and weapons is a sign you DON'T have to fight anyone?

I certainly do not think so. What I have observed while testing the tutorial today is, again, smaller fleet will flee player fleet. Works as intented. It's not a bug, it's a feature.

I know he picked that start, he didn't have to say it specifically.

Unless I'm mistaken, he could also have used start option 4 (or 5). Or, though less likely, he could have used mods and used a different start.

... since there are clear problems with the tutorial. If it were perfect there wouldn't be basic gameplay mechanics questions on a daily basis (and most of them repeat super often).

Nobody here said the tutorial is perfect. The last part of my previous message contains a few relevant suggestions to improve the tutorial. What do you think about these?
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Grievous69

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Re: Tutorial is weird with some starts
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2020, 10:40:12 AM »

I only see two suggestions from your bullet points, explanation of burn speed and usage of emergency burn + sustained burn to catch fleets. While I agree those are important I'd like to add some more:
- Explanation of d-mods, how exactly do they affect the ships and how you can remove them (so many players wonder what these orange bars are)
- A brief refit tutorial, there needs to be an example of a ''decent'' build being made step by step and why each choice is made, I really don't think teaching new players to autofit everything is the right way
- Colony tutorial maybe? I have no idea how would that work at the very beginning of the game tho

There's more stuff for sure, these are just some frequent ones I've noticed that are lacking.

Quote
Smaller fleet will flee from player fleet. Works as intented. It's not a bug, it's a feature.
Usually this is true, but Pirates and Luddic Path fleets will attack you even when outnumbered (unless they're really outnumbered).
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