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[dis astranagant]

Just gonna copy it straight from discord, context is gwyvern talking about specifically blocking amb from a builtin hullmod's benefits after I posted videos of amb boats dunking on heavy cruisers.

disastranagant: tbh ambs are pretty overpowered in general
[1:15 AM] Gwyvern: Well nominally they are hella short ranged, *** off inefficent, and the definition of single shot
[1:15 AM] Gwyvern: The Champion gives them a flat 66% more base range
[1:16 AM] Gwyvern: Which makes them much cozier to work with
[1:16 AM] disastranagant: except they're not inefficient at all, have one of the highest dps values for their mount and are only slightly shorter ranged than the other vanilla small energy projectiles
[1:17 AM] disastranagant: on top of being bursty af and having ammo that doesn't matter in most fights

<snip confusion over amb stats, it was less efficient and less burst damage eons ago>

1:24 AM] Flat Waste Murderer Tri-Kart (M): tbh, even with the efficiency its still rare to see them used
[1:24 AM] disastranagant: they're quite underutilized
[1:25 AM] Gwyvern: Also could use less ammo
[1:25 AM] disastranagant: in part because getting the ai to fire a 1500 flux strike weapon is hard
[1:25 AM] Gwyvern: For 9 OP you could get 9 single reapers in 9 slots, or 1 AMB
[1:25 AM] Gwyvern: Id say the AMB is much more useful
[1:26 AM] disastranagant: if you need a small energy weapon to deal damage to an opponent amb is your gun
[1:26 AM] disastranagant: the umpteen ir pulse but less bad mod guns out there are a sideshow
1:26 AM] Flat Waste Murderer Tri-Kart (M): single reapers are 2 OP apiece
[1:27 AM] Gwyvern: Maybe bring thst up on the forums so Alex sees it
[1:27 AM] Gwyvern: Rip my memory
[1:27 AM] disastranagant: they're basically the counterpoint to small energy slots suck

 

[Grievous69]

[1:27 AM] disastranagant: they're basically the counterpoint to small energy slots suck

But they're still not that strong as you claim on high-tech ships. If you're not using Sabots you have to first slap shields with meh weapons and only then can you fire the AB if you have enough flux left. In the end I just see them as a niche weapon rather than general purpose HE. Now where they can be devastating are midline ships with mobility systems. Having the option to use kinetics + AB is where it gets very strong. But I don't know how to fix that without making it yet another bad small energy weapon.

My idea would be scrap the ammo part totally but make it less bursty (maybe 800 dmg?).

[TaLaR]

Perfect for Afflictor/Shade, otherwise they don't have much use.
Too low dps/high OP for SO builds, too short ranged and ammo-limited for big ships (with CR/Capital PPT ammo does become a limiting factor). There is control problem too - you can't afford such huge flux spikes to autofire, but big ships likely need to control something else manually already.

[Megas]

Good for Harbinger too!  With enough combat skill support, they are easier to use than triple phase lances (no need to aim at target for more than an instant).  Harbinger is a tankier AMB Afflictor that can last longer on the battlefield and bypass shields more easily with QD.  (Not as cheap as Afflictor, but less frustrating to use for that purpose.)  Was also good for several other ships before 0.8a when skills were stronger and ships were faster and had better flux stats.

I would use AM Blaster on Scarab, but Scarab is terrible for its cost, and have not used it in a serious fleet since its glory days of 0.7.2a.

[Thaago]

I use AMB religiously on phase ships and rare on others. I feel like they are pretty good on Medusas, though it needs to skimp a little somewhere to fit 2 them, and its possible to build a good wolf that uses them, though again its hard to fit the rest of a proper loadout on with it as it also requires good flux stats.

[Igncom1]

I rarely use it, but when I do I try to use it where it "doesn't" belong. Like on Eagles and Conquests!

Rarely I do the opposite to phase ships too, but it's harder to make a harbinger with needlers work quite as well.

[Grievous69]

Well that explains why I don't use them usually, they're apparently only good on phase ships and the only one I pilot is Doom, where I use different weapons. I even proved myself wrong in my first post here, they're not even that good on midline ships. Both Falcon and Eagle feel super bad trying to go balls deep with these and then fluxing myself out.

So in the end should the AMB remain the same and we get something else that's actually decent on ships with energy mounts since normal frigates can barely fire this and they need small mounts for damage? Maybe something with regenerating charges around 7-8 OP that will go well with the hit and run thingy for high-tech ships.

EDIT: Thanks for reminding me about the Conquest, I even tried it out there and I still think it's an awful choice. I need smalls for PD and almost every medium weapons performs better than AMB. I usually put Phase lances in those mediums and they're great. Besides, you already have to manually fire other guns and putting AMB on autofire is a recipe for disaster.

[Schwartz]

AB occupies a certain niche. I would like to see it remain in game as the low RoF, high-damage, hard flux weapon that it is, but not be such an outlier with how much per-shot damage you get and how prohibitively difficult it is to actually fire on smaller ships. I don't think it's too good, I think it's a combination of being seldom good and too good. I'd try something like this, without having put too much thought into it:

Damage Per Shot: 1400 -> 800
Flux Per Shot: 1500 -> 900
OP Cost: 9 -> 7ish
Shots/min: 5,85 -> 10
Damage/Sec: 136 -> 133
Flux/Sec: 146 -> 150
Charges: Removed
Range: Unchanged
Windup: Unchanged, possibly even increased

Actually.. I'ma put this in my game and see how it plays.

[intrinsic_parity]

I really don't think they are very good on anything other than phase ships. Normal high tech ships that can mount them have to spend most of their capacity blocking enemy fire with shields and firing their own inefficient weapons to overload enemy shields. The alpha damage is great on paper, until you remember you're also effectively doing alpha damage to your own shields/flux systems via the big spike in flux when you fire them. I think the AI is reasonably hesitant to use them because they constitute such a big risk: you have to get into very close range and there is a huge spike in your own flux. The player can usually manage this risk (although it's still very easy to make a mistake), but the AI is not really equipped to do that. I find that very frequently with something like AM blaster medusa, you commit in and dump all your flux to deal damage and the enemy is not dead, and now you are <400 range away from the enemy fleet on max flux. Reapers cost 0 flux to fire and have much better range, so they work much much better on most ships.

Phase ships are uniquely good at using AM blasters because they don't depend on shields (and thus flux capacity) to block damage, and they frequently have the ability to bypass enemy shields meaning they get to spend the majority of their capacity on dealing hull and armor damage.

TBH, I don't mind existing AM blaster being in the game for phase ships, but there should be another option for other ships that want a similar type of weapon. I also personally think that phase ships are OP and need the nerf bat, but that's for another thread.

[Schwartz]

Also noteworthy is that DPS is really anemic for such an OP-expensive weapon. Even IR Pulse Laser has more DPS. Putting AM Blasters on bigger ships is an uphill battle because you're spending 9 OP for 136 DPS where you could be spending 14 OP for 500 DPS in a medium mount or just get 152 DPS, more range, better flux conversion for 5 OP with IR Pulses.

Alpha is too situational, and when the situation does arise, 1400 damage is too good of an alpha strike. This IMO is bad on both ends of the spectrum.

After trying my modifications for a bit, it feels like AM Blaster has lost some tooth but it's much more forgiving now. I could see these being used.

[TaLaR]

While nerfing AM would directly nerf phase ships (except Doom) by a lot, they'd stay fundamentally the same - uncounterable (outlasting by CR is not much of a tactic...) and unpilotable for AI.

[Megas]

Well that explains why I don't use them usually, they're apparently only good on phase ships and the only one I pilot is Doom, where I use different weapons. I even proved myself wrong in my first post here, they're not even that good on midline ships. Both Falcon and Eagle feel super bad trying to go balls deep with these and then fluxing myself out.

So in the end should the AMB remain the same and we get something else that's actually decent on ships with energy mounts since normal frigates can barely fire this and they need small mounts for damage? Maybe something with regenerating charges around 7-8 OP that will go well with the hit and run thingy for high-tech ships.

EDIT: Thanks for reminding me about the Conquest, I even tried it out there and I still think it's an awful choice. I need smalls for PD and almost every medium weapons performs better than AMB. I usually put Phase lances in those mediums and they're great. Besides, you already have to manually fire other guns and putting AMB on autofire is a recipe for disaster.

Not just any old phase ship, just those piloted by the player.  I generally have better things to pilot.  If I pilot Afflictor, it is usually to cheese (one-hit) kill a big target with quad Amp Damage Reapers.  For the rare times I feel like sweeping multiple frigates, destroyers, and light cruisers, I pilot Harbinger instead of a Doom or 40+ DP capital.

Doom... weapons feel more like a bonus on it since the mines are so powerful.  Usually, burst PD and a couple Heavy Blasters are all I want, although Salamanders are handy in isolated duels.

As for Conquest, I almost always leave the medium energy mount empty.  After all, ballistics are generally superior to energy weapons, and it costs a lot of OP to get both Hardened Shields and Expanded Missile Racks (for Locusts).  If I do fill the medium energy mount, it is usually another PD weapon, typically burst PD.

[SafariJohn]

AMB is fine.

[shoi]

While nerfing AM would directly nerf phase ships (except Doom) by a lot, they'd stay fundamentally the same - uncounterable

I'm really confused how so many people can have issues with phase ships. Are we playing different games? Phase ships are easily countered by any decently fast frigate or fighter swarm will just chase it around the map until it reaches max flux then kill it. The only way I can imagine anyone having issues with them is someone spamming a bunch of slow ships and being suprised phased  ships can exploit that weakness

I have to disagree that AMB is OP outside of some very niche cases. It's extremely risky to use in most situations and the only reason its so good on phase ships is their playstyle conveniently waives many of those risks (Need to get extremely close, then line up the shot, and then get away without being obliterated)

[TaLaR]

While nerfing AM would directly nerf phase ships (except Doom) by a lot, they'd stay fundamentally the same - uncounterable

I'm really confused how so many people can have issues with phase ships. Are we playing different games? Phase ships are easily countered by any decently fast frigate or fighter swarm will just chase it around the map until it reaches max flux then kill it. The only way I can imagine anyone having issues with them is someone spamming a bunch of slow ships and being suprised phased  ships can exploit that weakness

Single properly-piloted phase frigate can toy with whole fleet of AI ships:

Spoiler

[close]

I don't have problem with killing AI phase ships, as you can easily see by comparison they are absolutely incompetent.