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Author Topic: Nerf the Thunder via...  (Read 292 times)

MesoTroniK

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Nerf the Thunder via...
« on: May 22, 2020, 11:56:41 PM »

Replacing its Ion Cannon with the high delay version. That is all, I hope I don't need to expound on why but it really does need a change like that :)

Grievous69

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Re: Nerf the Thunder via...
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2020, 12:15:34 AM »

These posts make me wish for an upvote feature at least for suggestions. Typing +1 or ''I agree'' is lazy and I don't have anything crucial to say except for that the man is right.
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Nerf the Thunder via...
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2020, 01:20:46 AM »

I'll be that person and I will ask: Why Meso? Why should they get nerfed?
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TaLaR

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Re: Nerf the Thunder via...
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2020, 01:33:43 AM »

Thunders have mediocre survivability, only 2 per wing and have very long respawn timer. This means they lose replenishment rate extremely fast compared to Sparks/Talons.
As long as attacked ship doesn't stupidly try to ignore them and actually tries to cull the swarm, they are much easier to shut down than never ending spam of Sparks or even simple Talons.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 01:39:10 AM by TaLaR »
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MesoTroniK

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Re: Nerf the Thunder via...
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2020, 01:40:15 AM »

@MK, because the Thunder is a do-everything fighter in terms of all the damage types it can deal and it makes it too much of a no-brainer in many cases especially combined with its prodigious speed and double the leash range of other fighters. It isn't about removing its crippling EMP damage, just toning it back a little since it also combines it with KE damage from the guns and HE from its missiles. Making it less of an obvious choice vs specialist fighters.

@TaLaR, what you just said is valid and someone brought another point up with me that I am going to roll into the same reply. But perhaps it should also get a built-in hullmod that improves its autofire accuracy improving the lead intercept point for its weapons fire decisions. Because you are right, and the other person is too. They blabbed about how its massive speed causes the Ion Cannon to miss often. So then, the hullmod? Would make it hit more *reliably* but have less total damage output. Overall still a nerf, but less of a total and direct downgrade.

Megas

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Re: Nerf the Thunder via...
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2020, 05:59:31 AM »

High Delay Ion Cannon means I would use Claws instead.  The choice between Claws and Thunders is do I want defense (Claws) or offense (Thunders).  TaLaR explained Thunders' weaknesses, and those weaknesses are enough that I do not use them very often.  I tried Thunder spam, and while it is good for steamrolling inferior forces, they are a bit too flimsy against stronger opponents.

If Thunders get High Delay Ion Cannon, I want old 0.8a two-shot Swarmers (or the old-school single Harpoon) back in exchange.

They blabbed about how its massive speed causes the Ion Cannon to miss often. So then, the hullmod? Would make it hit more *reliably* but have less total damage output. Overall still a nerf, but less of a total and direct downgrade.
I do not know if such a hullmod alone would work.  Do shots inherit source velocity?  (I think it does but I do not remember for sure.)  No amount of shot-leading will help, at least not without another bonus to speed up shots, the shot speed bonus comparable to old pre-0.8a Ordnance Expert 5.

The makes that Wing Command fighter speed bonus a problem.  I would want it for Warthogs and bombers, but not Thunders.  Sort of like Defensive Systems 3 being a liability on AI phase ships (when I want endurance on the battlefield).
« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 06:46:28 AM by Megas »
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SCC

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Re: Nerf the Thunder via...
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2020, 10:02:49 AM »

I never take Claws, if I can take Thunders instead. 4/5ths as EMP-y, but faster (which means more shield bypassing) and with light machine guns.

Thaago

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Re: Nerf the Thunder via...
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2020, 11:01:02 AM »

At present Thunders are the do everything swarm everywhere fighter that combine all 3 damage types while having a massive 8k range. They lack raw DPS, but thats just about their only weakness.

I think their low survivability is mostly a paper stat: in gameplay I don't see them getting shot down very much because of their sheer speed and the presence of their Ion Cannon shutting down enemy weapons. Thunders should universally be used as a 'pure' wing because of their speed, so ships will have to deal with a minimum of 2 or 3 wings at a time.

I like Meso's suggestion a lot because it directly plays into their survivability: by lowering the ion, enemy weapons stay online longer, killing the thunders. (And in coming up with tournament strategies to beat mass thunder spam, EMP resistance + accelerated repairs + armored weapon mounts was essential - otherwise the Ion is too strong).

As part of a larger fighter change I'd want to nerf their range - standard fighters down to 3k and long ranged fighters like the thunder down to 5k - but thats a larger balance that more has to do with helping the AI to actually engage carriers instead of run away from the wings.
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Megas

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Re: Nerf the Thunder via...
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2020, 01:10:42 PM »

I never take Claws, if I can take Thunders instead. 4/5ths as EMP-y, but faster (which means more shield bypassing) and with light machine guns.
If Thunders become 2/5 "as EMP-y" (as get nothing else as compensation), I would never take them.  Currently, I take them if I do not think their low defenses and long respawn times would hurt the carrier.  Sometimes, I use Claws, and other times, Thunders.  I tend to go 50-50 when deciding either Claws or Thunders.
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Alex

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Re: Nerf the Thunder via...
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2020, 01:17:07 PM »

Funny, I actually did exactly this a couple of weeks ago :)

I think their low survivability is mostly a paper stat ...

Yeah, it really is! They don't seem like they'd be all that great, but jeez, stacking a bunch of them - just on a single ship, like the Legion - and they really outperform almost all the alternatives, especially for cost.
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MesoTroniK

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Re: Nerf the Thunder via...
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2020, 06:08:41 PM »

They blabbed about how its massive speed causes the Ion Cannon to miss often. So then, the hullmod? Would make it hit more *reliably* but have less total damage output. Overall still a nerf, but less of a total and direct downgrade.
I do not know if such a hullmod alone would work.  Do shots inherit source velocity?  (I think it does but I do not remember for sure.)  No amount of shot-leading will help, at least not without another bonus to speed up shots, the shot speed bonus comparable to old pre-0.8a Ordnance Expert 5.
Yes they do inherit velocity, but the leading calculation factors this in so it absolutely helps. Anyways it was a spitball idea, and one it probably doesn't need.

Funny, I actually did exactly this a couple of weeks ago :)
Awesome, that is good news indeed Alex :)

Avanitia

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Re: Nerf the Thunder via...
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2020, 06:18:08 PM »

I think their low survivability is mostly a paper stat: in gameplay I don't see them getting shot down very much because of their sheer speed and the presence of their Ion Cannon shutting down enemy weapons

It really is - because of their speed they don't get shot down by ship weapons often, unless they come from front where they eat all the dakka, or get into range of AOE weapons like Devastator.
Something I resort to sometimes is getting a ship that can mount a bunch of AOE weapons like Devastator, flaks, maybe something with EMP and just use it as flagship, bait all carrier strikes at me, while rest of fleet deals with ships and other things.

Funny, I actually did exactly this a couple of weeks ago :)

That's nice to hear, they are really strong if there's more than 1 wing on a target.
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FooF

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Re: Nerf the Thunder via...
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2020, 07:49:20 PM »

I find Thunders grossly miss their intended target more often than not because of their breakneck speed and strafing action. They are do-everything fighters but I've never considered them top-tier.

Then again, I've never tried massing them. Could just be user error (me!) but a single Thunder has never impressed me.
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Megas

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Re: Nerf the Thunder via...
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2020, 08:10:29 PM »

I find Thunders grossly miss their intended target more often than not because of their breakneck speed and strafing action. They are do-everything fighters but I've never considered them top-tier.

Then again, I've never tried massing them. Could just be user error (me!) but a single Thunder has never impressed me.
I vaguely remember massing them to some extent (not twenty Drovers worth, more like six or so Herons plus maybe Astral, and not all of them had carrier officers).  From what I remember, they totally tore apart weaker fleets, but they did not tear up tough fleets.  Instead, they did some damage, before my carriers were reduced to 30% and I had to kill the survivors with warships.  I would prefer sturdier fighters that killed slower but were harder to get rid off or easier to regenerate.

I generally avoid twenty Drover fleets because my computer cannot handle huge fighter spam, and I do not want the skills required to be the best fighter spammer (because it means my character is married to Drover, Heron, or Astral flagship for the whole game, and flagship would need to kite from enemies like Spathi).
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Eji1700

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Re: Nerf the Thunder via...
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2020, 11:22:17 PM »

Thunders aren't supposed to solo enemy fleets, even when massed, but for their cost/ease of acquiring (say compared to sparks) they're pretty insane.

Once you hit critical mass you get to the point where anything under a thunder swarm is disabled for all practical purposes and waiting for someone to pull up and finish them off.   
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