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Author Topic: Low Tech ship non viablility  (Read 16673 times)

Alex

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Re: Low Tech ship non viablility
« Reply #105 on: May 19, 2020, 12:06:31 PM »

(Edit: the Condor's not too bad, really, btw. The Drover is just an enormous outlier, so, I don't think it's a great point of reference. It badly needs the nerf bat, and has had an appointment with it.)

Is there any chance/hope for a Drover nerf?

See bolded part :)


The head-canon I've always had is that Low-Tech military ships (not the intentionally bad stuff) were the old-school, dirty-but-works, "clunkers" that burn tons of fuel and has tons of armor. Its sort of like comparing a diesel battleship to a modern-day nuclear destroyer. Most of the Low Tech ships reinforce this by having a brutalistic aesthetic and very simplistic frontal firepower design.

That's pretty much how I see it, yeah. (The speed idea - while interesting! - I think clashes too much with my internal conception of low-tech ships...)


As an example the Onslaught cost more to maintain then the Paragon. It uses 50% more fuel and when you factor in the extra 350 required crew cost, skeleton crew, relative to supplies the Paragon is still cheaper. Nearly all the low tech ships seem to be suffering from the maintenance cost issue.

I feel like just looking at the cost ultimately converted into credits misses some important nuance. First of all, 350 extra crew, yeah, that's an extra 35 supplies per month when converted to credits, but it's not supplies that need to be carried with you, it's just credits. That's a pretty important difference. Fuel goes the other way, of course. The Onslaught also is more reslient (less CR to deploy), i.e. has more value when there are ongoing deployments. Ultimately, though, the Onslaught is only 40 DP, which I think is a bit less than its combat potential, which would be the main argument for having its maintenance costs in the same general ballpark as the Paragon...

Not to say it's perfectly balanced, really - more just pointing out that it's not quite so cut and dry as reducing the maintenance cost to credits and doing a comparison.



Not to get lost in this, but it could be easier and still be rewarding?

Seems like generally the easier it is, the less rewarding it'd be, no? Could of course be easier and still be rewarding, but that's an argument that could be made about any ship in any context, I think.

At any point you can self impose limits to try and achieve things, but "make low tech work" isn't exactly something that's encouraged either.  To be fair i'm not sure how you do it elegantly, but so meting along the lines of "low tech ships get a free hull mod", "Low tech ships have a % chance to take no dmod on destruction", or just something along those lines to even nudge players in that direction. 

Ahh, you're saying "low tech", but I'm pretty sure we're still talking about the Buffalo Mk.II, Cerberus, and Hound, that type of stuff, no? The Cerberus and the Hound are combat freighters, not proper combat ships, and the Buffalo Mk.II's primary reason for existing at all is so the pirates have a weak destroyer the player can beat up on easily in the early game.

It's sort of like saying that midline ships are too weak, but actually talking about the Wayfarer and the Hermes - not necessarily wrong, but pretty confusing. When I hear "low tech", I generally assume we're talking about the combat ships, since that's where there is a common thread of design, an intention for them to be combat capable, and so on - it makes sense to talk about "low tech" as a balance category there. While these other ships are technically low tech as well, they just don't belong in the same conversation, if that makes sense. So using "low tech" to cover both types makes the term so broad as to not be very useful, besides indicating the shared aesthetics.

(Not that this is a super important point, just... I feel like using the term like that can really contribute to not being on the same page. Case in point, I didn't immediately realize which ships you were talking about earlier, and I'm not 100% sure in this post, either.)


On the other hand i'm pretty hype for the next patch by all means ditch this nonsense if it gets it out faster.

No worries, this isn't derailing things :)
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dead_hand

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Re: Low Tech ship non viablility
« Reply #106 on: May 19, 2020, 12:31:42 PM »

(Edit: the Condor's not too bad, really, btw. The Drover is just an enormous outlier, so, I don't think it's a great point of reference. It badly needs the nerf bat, and has had an appointment with it.)

Is there any chance/hope for a Drover nerf?

See bolded part :)

Jeez, I am evidently completely blind, my apologies. Thank you for the good news ofc! :)
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TaLaR

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Re: Low Tech ship non viablility
« Reply #107 on: May 19, 2020, 12:38:44 PM »

Ultimately, though, the Onslaught is only 40 DP, which I think is a bit less than its combat potential, which would be the main argument for having its maintenance costs in the same general ballpark as the Paragon...

Compared to 40 DP Conquest or 45 DP Odyssey, I don't see how 40 DP Onslaught is undervalued. Both can perform significantly better under player control.

Onslaught may perform better as AI ship, but the only reason for that is being less finesse-oriented.
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Igncom1

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Re: Low Tech ship non viablility
« Reply #108 on: May 19, 2020, 12:45:16 PM »

It also comes with the only real guns it should need. Everything else is just support for the Onslaughts Thermal Pulse Cannons!
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SCC

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Re: Low Tech ship non viablility
« Reply #109 on: May 19, 2020, 12:56:29 PM »

I feel like just looking at the cost ultimately converted into credits misses some important nuance. First of all, 350 extra crew, yeah, that's an extra 35 supplies per month when converted to credits, but it's not supplies that need to be carried with you, it's just credits.
This is true. I can buy supplies on a discount or win them in a battle, but, I can never do anything to reduce the salary. And it's maintenance costs aren't just in the same ballpark as Paragon's, it's more expensive than it. Slightly more without any fuel usage, significantly so with. Same goes for Legion. Onslaught becomes cheaper only after 3 monthly deployments, if I recall correctly.
A small detail I just thought about is that all ships lose CR at the same rate, but not all ships require the same amount of supplies per CR. I don't know how often it affects players (especially new players who don't know it's more efficient to redeploy, instead of burning CR), but it makes burning CR on low-tech ships an expensive endeavour. Well, more expensive than usual CR burning.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Low Tech ship non viablility
« Reply #110 on: May 19, 2020, 12:57:14 PM »

At any point you can self impose limits to try and achieve things, but "make low tech work" isn't exactly something that's encouraged either.  To be fair i'm not sure how you do it elegantly, but so meting along the lines of "low tech ships get a free hull mod", "Low tech ships have a % chance to take no dmod on destruction", or just something along those lines to even nudge players in that direction. 

Ahh, you're saying "low tech", but I'm pretty sure we're still talking about the Buffalo Mk.II, Cerberus, and Hound, that type of stuff, no? The Cerberus and the Hound are combat freighters, not proper combat ships, and the Buffalo Mk.II's primary reason for existing at all is so the pirates have a weak destroyer the player can beat up on easily in the early game.

It's sort of like saying that midline ships are too weak, but actually talking about the Wayfarer and the Hermes - not necessarily wrong, but pretty confusing. When I hear "low tech", I generally assume we're talking about the combat ships, since that's where there is a common thread of design, an intention for them to be combat capable, and so on - it makes sense to talk about "low tech" as a balance category there. While these other ships are technically low tech as well, they just don't belong in the same conversation, if that makes sense. So using "low tech" to cover both types makes the term so broad as to not be very useful, besides indicating the shared aesthetics.

(Not that this is a super important point, just... I feel like using the term like that can really contribute to not being on the same page. Case in point, I didn't immediately realize which ships you were talking about earlier, and I'm not 100% sure in this post, either.)

Sounds like a good argument for getting away from the Low Tech/Midline/High Tech dichotomy ;)
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Alex

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Re: Low Tech ship non viablility
« Reply #111 on: May 19, 2020, 01:19:43 PM »

Hmm. I wonder if a "Low Maintenance" hullmod (that would, say, halve the monthly supplies but not the deployment cost) on the Onslaught might not be an interesting change. Or, could slap "High Maintenance" on the Paragon, that could be... fun. And thematic!

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Thanks, fixed that up!
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Wyvern

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Re: Low Tech ship non viablility
« Reply #112 on: May 19, 2020, 01:36:56 PM »

Hmm. I wonder if a "Low Maintenance" hullmod (that would, say, halve the monthly supplies but not the deployment cost) on the Onslaught might not be an interesting change. Or, could slap "High Maintenance" on the Paragon, that could be... fun. And thematic!
I mean... why not both?  Both would be good.
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Grievous69

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Re: Low Tech ship non viablility
« Reply #113 on: May 19, 2020, 01:46:19 PM »

High maintenance on Paragon would mean it would cost 120 supplies/month... People here were just pointing out how Onslaught is a bit expensive to maintain vs other capitals, not to outright butcher the Paragon. I agree that it's a very powerful ship but it already has its negatives. It's just the vocal minority on forums/reddit praising the Paragon as the most broken thing in the game.

I'm perfectly fine with the Low maintenance hullmod, it would make sense as there is already tons of crew on the Onslaught being payed so it's kinda baked in let's say.
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SCC

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Re: Low Tech ship non viablility
« Reply #114 on: May 19, 2020, 01:50:17 PM »

The effect of crew on upkeep is pretty small for frigates and destroyers, but it picks up the pace after that. I'm mostly annoyed because it's pretty blatant which capital ship is the better one, yet it's the other that's more expensive to run.

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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Low Tech ship non viablility
« Reply #115 on: May 19, 2020, 02:10:31 PM »

I feel like just looking at the cost ultimately converted into credits misses some important nuance. First of all, 350 extra crew, yeah, that's an extra 35 supplies per month when converted to credits, but it's not supplies that need to be carried with you, it's just credits.
This is true. I can buy supplies on a discount or win them in a battle, but, I can never do anything to reduce the salary. And it's maintenance costs aren't just in the same ballpark as Paragon's, it's more expensive than it. Slightly more without any fuel usage, significantly so with. Same goes for Legion. Onslaught becomes cheaper only after 3 monthly deployments, if I recall correctly.
A small detail I just thought about is that all ships lose CR at the same rate, but not all ships require the same amount of supplies per CR. I don't know how often it affects players (especially new players who don't know it's more efficient to redeploy, instead of burning CR), but it makes burning CR on low-tech ships an expensive endeavour. Well, more expensive than usual CR burning.

You can actually pay less salary.  Just don't fill your ships to minimum crew.  You take a CR penalty, but as long as you stay above 40% you won't have malfunctions.  Its not a good option, but its there if you desperately need to trade some fleet effectiveness for a bit of cash.  I may have some minor experience with this due to playing spacer starts and running the very first real ship I get my hands on under crewed. :)

As for supplies on discount, I feel like there's a lot more places where supplies are more expensive than 100 credits rather than less.  Of course that also means extra supplies you get from your victories can be converted to cash to pay for crew.  To be honest, if you're hauling around capitals, I feel like 2,000 or 5,000 credit differences here and there don't really matter in the grand scheme of things.  Certainly you can spend a lot more credits hunting for a good deal instead of simply buying the closest and immediately heading out to the next bounty or target. Capacity matters, for determining your reach but 4 destroyer class tankers will still get a bunch of Onslaughts and Legions from the core worlds to the edge of the sector and back.  Losing a frigate or a destroyer in battle is a bigger deal in terms of cost.

As for deployment costs assuming base prices, Onslaught ties or beats a Paragon in terms of crew/supply costs at one deployment.

Onslaught's 750 crew is 7500 credits per month, plus 40 supplies valued at 100 credits each is 7500+4000=11,500 credits per month.  1 deployment costs 40 supplies, or effectively another 4,000 credits, so 15,500 for 1 deployment per month.

Paragon's 400 crew is 4000 credits per month, plus 60 supplies, so 4000+6000 = 10,000 credits per month.  1 deployment costs 60 supplies (6,000 credits), so 16,000 credits for 1 deployment per month.  Skills of course affect this, with -25% less supplies being worth more on a ship with a higher supply/crew ratio (like the paragon).  That shifts the base sitting there cost to 10,500 credits versus 8500, so they exactly tie after just 1 deployment.  Onslaught always comes out ahead at 2 deployments a month ignoring fuel and not going over base deployment time.

Hmm. I wonder if a "Low Maintenance" hullmod (that would, say, halve the monthly supplies but not the deployment cost) on the Onslaught might not be an interesting change. Or, could slap "High Maintenance" on the Paragon, that could be... fun. And thematic!

Low maintenance doesn't do much for the Onslaught, since the majority of its upkeep cost comes from crew salaries.  7500+2000 = 9,500 vs normal 11,500.  About a 18% shift in upkeep assuming you're just sitting there in space.  If you're burning to the edge of the map and back, its even less (burn 20, 2 light years per day, 60 light year round trip) is 900 fuel or 22,500 credits.  32,000 vs 34,000 isn't really noticeable I think.

High maintenance on a Paragon is a bigger deal, doubling 6000 credits to 12000 credits per month, so 10,000 to 16,000 for about a 60% shift in upkeep costs (again ignoring fuel).  If you do assume you're flying out to the edge and back over the course of a month (burn 20, 2 light years per day, 60 light year round trip is 1 month), that 600 fuel or 15,000 credits at 25 credit per unit.  In which case 31,000 over 25,000 is only a 24% increase in credit running costs.  Less if deployments are included.

Most players I would imagine would still pay that for a Paragon.  I certainly would.  I mean, I run my end game fleets at full crew.  Which means I'm literally throwing credits out the window and it doesn't really affect my bottom line significantly.  Especially at the point in the game that you can generally acquire a Paragon.  Unless they're composed primarily of Paragons, I don't see most end game fleets caring actually changing composition with that change.  Maybe you throw in an extra destroyer or cruiser freighter for a quad set of Paragons?
« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 02:13:34 PM by Hiruma Kai »
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SafariJohn

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Re: Low Tech ship non viablility
« Reply #116 on: May 19, 2020, 02:47:00 PM »

120 su/month would probably make Paragon too expensive to use if you happened upon one early on. It would just be kind of all around weird, IMO.

If you really want to double the supply cost of something on the Paragon, double the CR recovery cost.
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Megas

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Re: Low Tech ship non viablility
« Reply #117 on: May 19, 2020, 03:01:30 PM »

I would not would want High-Maintenance on Paragon, if its DP stays at 60, especially since the other capitals are not that far behind, except maybe Onslaught (thanks bad turret arcs and dissipation).  Maybe if its DP was lowered to 40, High Maintenance would be easier to stomach, if max battle size remains at 500.

Conquest is decent for its cost, for both playership and AI use.  I use them liberally when Paragon is not an option, due to how common Conquest is.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 03:07:40 PM by Megas »
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Histidine

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Re: Low Tech ship non viablility
« Reply #118 on: May 19, 2020, 06:33:36 PM »

Random comments

- Note re. SCC's table: Heron's skeleton crew is 150, not 90 (thank goodness)

- High Maintenance on Paragon would generate the gut feeling of being prohibitively expensive, unless the hullmod's maintenance cost increase was reduced from 100% to 50% (for 90 supplies/month). This would also help Hyperion, though not in the way(s) it particularly needs.

- Does Onslaught really need to be set at 750 skeleton crew? 600 would be just about right.

A small detail I just thought about is that all ships lose CR at the same rate, but not all ships require the same amount of supplies per CR. I don't know how often it affects players (especially new players who don't know it's more efficient to redeploy, instead of burning CR), but it makes burning CR on low-tech ships an expensive endeavour. Well, more expensive than usual CR burning.
Yeah this is a bit annoying. Low-tech ships have more PPT than high-tech ones, but once PPT runs out low-tech ships burn a hole in your pocket faster than high-tech ones (and worse, do it in a semi-hidden way).
Maybe post-PPT CR degradation should be a multiple of CR % spent per deployment? Although that risks having weird effects on a few ships (e.g. with Hyperion's 40% CR to deploy)...
« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 06:37:12 PM by Histidine »
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Locklave

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Re: Low Tech ship non viablility
« Reply #119 on: May 19, 2020, 06:35:10 PM »

The effect of crew on upkeep is pretty small for frigates and destroyers, but it picks up the pace after that. I'm mostly annoyed because it's pretty blatant which capital ship is the better one, yet it's the other that's more expensive to run.

I wish that chart was shocking to me. The second you hit Cruisers or higher Low tech starts to feel like a credit toilet.

I feel like just looking at the cost ultimately converted into credits misses some important nuance. First of all, 350 extra crew, yeah, that's an extra 35 supplies per month when converted to credits, but it's not supplies that need to be carried with you, it's just credits. That's a pretty important difference. Fuel goes the other way, of course. The Onslaught also is more reslient (less CR to deploy), i.e. has more value when there are ongoing deployments. Ultimately, though, the Onslaught is only 40 DP, which I think is a bit less than its combat potential, which would be the main argument for having its maintenance costs in the same general ballpark as the Paragon...

Not to say it's perfectly balanced, really - more just pointing out that it's not quite so cut and dry as reducing the maintenance cost to credits and doing a comparison.

On scouting/missions farming for blueprints most of the time you are only returning to port for 2 reasons if you build your character and fleet correctly.

- Because you have so much good cargo dumping it for more loot feels insane
- Because you are running out of money

The cash output can't be mitigated by anything. Supplies can be mitigated to the point where you have effectively unlimited supplies from Skills/Salvaging rigs and you could be running around for 9 months never needing to buy anything. The problem isn't the Paragon being too cheap, it's the Capital/Cruiser tiers of Low Tech can't be offset by anything. The Onslaught in actual use costs more then the Paragon because Supplies can be free and salary never is.

So long as free supplies can offset the costs, Low tech will be more expensive to maintain in practice.

DP cost nothing if the supplies were free.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 06:40:07 PM by Locklave »
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