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Author Topic: [0.9.1a] Expanded Fleet Dialogue  (Read 1581 times)

Morrokain

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[0.9.1a] Expanded Fleet Dialogue
« on: May 09, 2020, 03:14:16 PM »

Mod Page Under Construction

This WIP mod expands fleet dialogue options for npc fleets.

The current options are:

1) Commodity Requests (Fuel, Supplies, Credits)
Examples:
Spoiler
]


















[close]

2) Ceasefire Negations (Can also use bribes to increase the chance of success)
Examples:
Spoiler

















[close]

Mod Compatibility Information:

For those mods who implement their own dialogue, that dialogue will not spawn this mod's dialogue options. A couple examples: Coalition, Dassault-Mikoyan Engineering

However, mods that use the standard default fleet dialogue from vanilla for their mod faction will have the options populated. Example: Diable Avionics

Opt In/Out Options: the mod plugin can be set up to crash the game if Fleet Dialogue is active, so that is one way a modder can easily get around this. Another way would be to just implement custom faction dialogue using the unique mod id to prevent the default vanilla dialogue from being used.

There isn't an easy way around this on my side since many vanilla factions rely upon the defaults, but as an olive branch if there are particular modder/modders who really don't want to add custom dialogue for their faction or an exclusion in the mod plugin and also don't want these options available: Post here with a link to the mod page and I will try and add a "not this faction" check to the defaults and I *think* that should allow the original defaults in vanilla to still populate for that faction without the dialogue options. That is very much an educated guess though, and will be done in an "upon request" kind of way.

Similarly, if you have implemented custom dialogue for your mod faction, and would like these options to be included in the interim between release and if/when I can set up some way of doing this in the mod faction's directory, you can post here and I will implement the dialogue with the necessary script in this mod.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2020, 04:59:26 PM by Morrokain »
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.9.1a] Expanded Fleet Dialogue
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2020, 03:18:23 PM »

**Reserved**
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MesoTroniK

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Re: [0.9.1a] Expanded Fleet Dialogue
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2020, 10:49:37 PM »

Morrokain, I hope this will be opt-in for mod factions.

Morrokain

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Re: [0.9.1a] Expanded Fleet Dialogue
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2020, 02:11:10 AM »

Morrokain, I hope this will be opt-in for mod factions.

It should only affect vanilla factions and Archean Order factions from what I can can gather, but that is part of the reason this is under construction. I want to provide an opt-in way for mod factions to provide dialogue or otherwise opt out of the feature, eventually, but I want to make sure it doesn't actually cause unintended dialogue in mods otherwise. So, testing has commenced in that sense. I can't promise for sure, but as it stands it should strictly be limited to vanilla factions, for now. That is the intention anyway.

The likely scenario is that it will be an opt-in situation in the future. Right now, for instance, it requires overrides of vanilla fleet encounter dialogue to run the necessary rules, anyway, so it would require custom adding of non-existing (potentially to another mod) rules scripts to even interact with the system. You have to run a specific script to get the necessary options. Since mods that add dialogue don't include this script, it won't theoretically affect mod factions in any way until I give them a lever to do so.

That is part of the hurdle of addressing mod inclusions in the first place, but rest assured this shouldn't affect the mod factions until they choose to be included!
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cathar

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Re: [0.9.1a] Expanded Fleet Dialogue
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2020, 02:19:10 AM »

This is a really cool idea. Should really expand especially the early game when you might have some credits from salvaging but not a big enough fleet for all the engagements.

I wanna do kind of pacifist run next so being able to negotiate with hostile fleets is perfect.

Would this be safe to add to an existing playthrough?


Also, I don't really understand the previous poster's complaint. Does it mean that for now this will only happen with vanilla faction fleets?
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AxleMC131

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Re: [0.9.1a] Expanded Fleet Dialogue
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2020, 03:38:17 AM »

Also, I don't really understand the previous poster's complaint. Does it mean that for now this will only happen with vanilla faction fleets?

MesoTroniK is implying that THIS mod should not automatically override the dialogue of OTHER mods that add custom factions. Rather, he is suggesting that other mod authors are able to "opt-in", to have the custom dialogue options if they choose, but if they do nothing then their content will be unaffected by this mod. This ensures that other mods that already have custom dialogue and interactions don't get overwritten.

Morrokain responds and reassures that right now, this mod only operates for vanilla faction interactions, so by default should not affect mod factions.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2020, 03:40:03 AM by AxleMC131 »
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.9.1a] Expanded Fleet Dialogue
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2020, 01:04:09 PM »

This is a really cool idea. Should really expand especially the early game when you might have some credits from salvaging but not a big enough fleet for all the engagements.

I wanna do kind of pacifist run next so being able to negotiate with hostile fleets is perfect.

Would this be safe to add to an existing playthrough?


Also, I don't really understand the previous poster's complaint. Does it mean that for now this will only happen with vanilla faction fleets?

Thanks I should hopefully have a download available soon. I'm still testing but everything seems to work so far.

It should be safe to add to an existing playthrough, yes, and as AxleMC131 already explained it should only affect vanilla factions (well and Archean Order but those aren't stand alone yet and the TC version has this mechanic built in already) until I can provide a way for other mods to opt in. I have to be completely honest there, it may take a while to make that happen. It will probably require a complete restructure of the code to make that work. The modifications to the values that determine interaction results are all hardcoded, and there are a lot of them. I will need to change the code to read from a file, probably, and then mod authors can edit their own interaction values such as "chance to give aid", "cost of aid when forced to pay", "how likely will bribes work", "what types of bribes are best", "cost of base bribe amount", etc.

Even should I do all of that, the script to populate the dialogue options still fires from the standard greetings, and since mod authors won't have that script available in their mod, if they tried to implement their own greetings including the script the game wouldn't load. Therefore, I have to find a way around that somehow. That could prove to be very tricky to do. Frankly, I'm not even sure if it is possible.

I also have to add custom dialogue for most of the vanilla factions because right now they work on the "default" dialogue which only has about 3-5 responses for each scenario. It's still a lot of dialogue (trust me) but I want to eventually flesh it out even more and make interactions feel as unique as possible. Pirates and Luddic Path have custom dialogue for the most part.
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cathar

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Re: [0.9.1a] Expanded Fleet Dialogue
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2020, 10:34:03 AM »

I still don't really understand why a mod author should not want their fleets to have expanded dialogue provided by a different mod.

For me as a player, I'd want all fleets in the game affected by this modification in the same way.
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.9.1a] Expanded Fleet Dialogue
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2020, 02:09:13 PM »

I still don't really understand why a mod author should not want their fleets to have expanded dialogue provided by a different mod.

For me as a player, I'd want all fleets in the game affected by this modification in the same way.

I definitely understand where you're coming from. The best way I can describe the complications that can arise from this sort of thing is that replacing the core greetings for other mods might prevent their dialogue from populating correctly unless they weight it higher than mine- which would require coordination between myself and all other modders that add dialogue this way. If that wasn't done properly, you could have situations where you would talk to the npc and either get the wrong response or in the worst case scenario get caught in a dialogue with no responses and have to reload if not in dev mode.

Or you could theoretically be on a quest for another mod that requires talking to a fleet. If my options override the dialogue for that fleet, then the quest can't be completed, etc.

I'm not sure if that would actually happen, of course, but I get the concern.
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AxleMC131

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Re: [0.9.1a] Expanded Fleet Dialogue
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2020, 03:02:56 PM »

Aye, Morrokain covers it as well as I can think of.

There is also a more subtle argument, which is that mods should NEVER affect the function of other mods in such a way without permission. There doesn't actually have to be something mechanical about it, it's just not a nice thing to do and is a really fast way to *** people off. Granted, mechanical problems (ie. things breaking) is a common reason for this to be called out, but there can be more complicated matters than that.
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.9.1a] Expanded Fleet Dialogue
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2020, 04:51:05 PM »

There is also a more subtle argument, which is that mods should NEVER affect the function of other mods in such a way without permission. There doesn't actually have to be something mechanical about it, it's just not a nice thing to do and is a really fast way to *** people off. Granted, mechanical problems (ie. things breaking) is a common reason for this to be called out, but there can be more complicated matters than that.

This is a very good guideline to follow and I definitely agree.

Since it has been brought up, I do want to address something I feel is important relating to this. It is splitting hairs a little bit, but: The caveat to this guideline is that this should only apply to custom mod content created by a mod author. So, say, a modded faction's personal content. It does get trickier if, say, one mod overrides a vanilla component to add a new feature- such as rules content that only has one entry point or something- and another mod does the same and so the two are incompatible as a result. That is a gray area.

Ugh, not too sure if I am explaining it clearly, but, what I'm trying to get at is something like: I don't necessarily think overriding vanilla components gives you "dibbs" on that component as a mod author, if that makes sense. And I don't think we should discourage or goal tend new modders from overriding vanilla components because they would cause effects in the overall campaign rig balance for faction mods.

That being said, it is always a good thing to be respectful and courteous to other mod authors and do your best to avoid conflicts. Sometimes it's unavoidable, though, and when it happens I don't think it should be policed as long as it is in good faith. I truly do get that this can be annoying because it can sometimes lead to grief from end users who don't understand where the effect is coming from, false bug reports, etc, but we as modders have to remember that not everyone may have the same tastes or balance opinion that we do, and we should encourage those trying to think outside the box or create new features. (Not saying that was what was happening here, just to be clear. This is a cut and dry case and there was never any intention of overriding mod faction content anyway.)

Those are my thoughts on the matter. I'm not really trying to get into a discussion of the subject on this thread, I just felt I should be transparent in how I think about this sort of thing.
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AxleMC131

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Re: [0.9.1a] Expanded Fleet Dialogue
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2020, 06:19:45 PM »

The statement I was making primarily refers to content that directly impacts original content of another mod, indeed. You're right about "two mods affecting the same vanilla feature in conflicting ways" being a different matter, and yes that's very much a grey area.
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MesoTroniK

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Re: [0.9.1a] Expanded Fleet Dialogue
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2020, 08:30:55 PM »

I still don't really understand why a mod author should not want their fleets to have expanded dialogue provided by a different mod.

For me as a player, I'd want all fleets in the game affected by this modification in the same way.
What both Axle and Morrokain said are useful data points and valid but I want to add some myself.

OK, lets say a mod adds some bloodthirsty pirates, or cannibals, or artificial general intelligence or whatever that would sooner tell you to go to Hell and leave your belongings behind before really talking to the player. Then if this sort of mod changes their dialog? Well then the entire rig is screwed heh.

So yea that single example (there are many more potentially), combined with what Axle and Morrokain said explains I think very clearly why it would be bad if this sort of mod affected all mods unless they opt in blah blah :)

Morrokain

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Re: [0.9.1a] Expanded Fleet Dialogue
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2020, 04:48:37 PM »

Update: I have tested how this mod interacts with several faction mods. Mod list:

  "istl_dam",
  "diableavionics",
  "DisassembleReassemble",
  "fleetdialogue_morro",
  "lw_lazylib",
  "MagicLib",
  "nexerelin",
  "ORA",
  "TS_Coalition",
  "shaderLib"

For those mods who implement their own dialogue, that dialogue will not spawn this mod's dialogue options. A couple examples: Coalition, Dassault-Mikoyan Engineering

However, mods that use the standard default fleet dialogue from vanilla for their mod faction will have the options populated. Example: Diable Avionics

I could not test Tiandong Heavy Industries because the mod plugin is set up to crash the game if Fleet Dialogue is active, so that is one way a modder can easily get around this. Another way would be to just implement custom faction dialogue using the unique mod id to prevent the default vanilla dialogue from being used.

Now, in general I see no easy way around this on my side since the majority of vanilla factions rely upon the defaults, but as an olive branch if there are particular modder/modders who really don't want to add custom dialogue for their faction or an exclusion in the mod plugin and also don't want these options available: Post here with a link to the mod page and I will try and add a "not this faction" check to the defaults and I *think* that should allow the original defaults in vanilla to still populate for that faction without the dialogue options. That is very much an educated guess though, and will be done in an "upon request" kind of way.

Similarly, if you have implemented custom dialogue for your mod faction, and would like these options to be included in the interim between release and if/when I can set up some way of doing this in the mod faction's directory, you can post here and I will implement the dialogue with the necessary script in this mod.

*EDIT* Added above info to main mod page.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2020, 04:51:54 PM by Morrokain »
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Histidine

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Re: [0.9.1a] Expanded Fleet Dialogue
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2020, 06:05:51 PM »

Check if it works properly when talking to a trade fleet with Underworld running.
Do both mods' options work? Only one? Or does the dialog code get stuck in an infinite loop?
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