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Author Topic: Combat buff ships for solo playstyle  (Read 7246 times)

Sordid

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Re: Combat buff ships for solo playstyle
« Reply #60 on: April 17, 2020, 10:14:04 AM »

WTF do I get a database error when I try to post an actual reply to this?
« Last Edit: April 17, 2020, 10:15:50 AM by Sordid »
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Thaago

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Re: Combat buff ships for solo playstyle
« Reply #61 on: April 17, 2020, 10:44:14 AM »

Hmm, error message appears to be: Database Error: Incorrect string value: '\xF0\x9F\x98\x92<b...' for column 'body' at row 1

Were you using any emojis? That seems to be the code for one, from a quick google search.
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Sordid

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Re: Combat buff ships for solo playstyle
« Reply #62 on: April 17, 2020, 11:55:43 AM »

Oh yeah, I was. Didn't realize that would cause problems. Thanks! The reply:

Since 0.8a, AI has become much more cowardly, and it did not get much better in 0.9a.  Modern AI is still much more cowardly than in 0.7.x releases and before.  It will stall until heat (or CR) death if given the chance. In worst case scenario (like lone starter Apogee), player may need to waste much time cornering the enemy before being able to kill it.

Yeah, that is incredibly annoying. 90% of my fights with a Radiant end with it backed up against the edge of the map. Way to go drawing attention to technical limitations, that kind of thing doesn't yank the player right out of the experience and destroy any semblance of immersion at all.   ::)

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Map size.

What can frigates do late game?

Agreed 100%. I miss the good old days...

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Well, being a wizard in Starsector means developer cheats, like giving yourself money, changing rep, giving yourself ships including normally unplayable ones like Radiant or Guardian, erasing enemy ships... or hijacking and piloting them yourself.  Creating or blowing up worlds.  Teleportation.  Insert weird or spooky stuff.  Basically playing god.

Eh... that's more like being the DM, or at least messing with the DM's notes and plans while he's on the toilet. I don't want to outright cheat (I could do that very easily), I want to play within the rules, I just wish the rules wouldn't strongly push me into the most unfun playstyle possible.

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What I meant by early fighter is player progresses from personal power to world strategic power.  One human is limited to so much, so the way for one human get more power than one human is to lead many humans to do what that one human wants, and not necessarily in a fight, but to build up an empire so you have a home, steady income, and maybe political power to do things like give quests to other low-level murderhobos to do your dirty work while you focus on you want to do.

I get that, but that's easy to do in tabletop roleplaying. In the context of SS you're talking about transitioning from a space shooter with AI allies to a 4X strategy, a complete switch of genre. And the thing is, if I wanted to play a 4X strategy game, there are many much, much beter ones than what SS is or ever will be (because, being a hybrid game, it can never be as good as a specialist single-genre title).

The colony management aspect as it currently exists is little more than reskinned Cookie Clicker. You earn some cookies manually at first, then you buy an upgrade that earns them automatically, and then you have nothing to do but wait until you have enough cookies to buy the next upgrade that earns them even faster, and then you wait some more, buy the next upgrade, etc., etc., until eventually you run out of upgrades to buy, at which point you question why you even bothered spending time on this.

And the thing is, that fighter can still go and bash some heads in regardless of how many followers he has. By the time you have an empire under your thumb in SS, you can't very well just go out with two frigates and a destroyer anymore, enemy fleets are going to be way too big for that. That fun, dynamic early-game gameplay is irretrievably lost.

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It would be nice if late-game Starsector has some ruler things to do instead of locking the player's fleet into meathead mode all game.

If it's fleshed out to let you do interesting things, sure, I guess? Given how anything interesting in meathead mode gets nerfed into the ground, though, I don't have high hopes. It's just going to be the same boring "+1% to whatever" kind of thing that character skills are saturated with.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2020, 01:04:08 PM by Sordid »
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Morrokain

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Re: Combat buff ships for solo playstyle
« Reply #63 on: April 17, 2020, 04:05:54 PM »

In the context of SS you're talking about transitioning from a space shooter with AI allies to a 4X strategy, a complete switch of genre.

The appeal of this game (for me at least) is specifically the combination of the two. I find that either of those genres in their pure form tend to be boring. In that sense, this thread (I didn't read all of it to be fair, but I *think* I get the main points) is wanting a design direction that, while I certainly respect the OP's opinion here, wouldn't be that fun to me if I'm honest.

If I could take on a radiant in a frigate and win (unless its a really rare, really expensive super frigate and I've skill specialized heavily and I am a very skilled pilot), I'd consider the game's balance to be very off (again, to me. I get some are more into the arcade shooter aspect than the strategic level and combat is certainly the number one selling point here, so that's very fair.). Same thing would apply if I could kite without consequence while the AI doesn't because it's forced not to. That would make the AI feel much less intelligent than me as the player. It's never going to be perfect, but imo this would make it feel worse.

I would agree that the AI could stand to be more aggressive and phase AI probably needs a bit of attention, but that is, in part, because another player preference is coming into play here- a lot of people really don't like to lose ships. I can't say I agree as I think losing ships should be a standard thing and salvage already gives a 100% effective way to regain them- but it should feel worth it to do so too.

I agree with more use of frigates even in late game, though. Small fleets need a role in the late game though they still need to remain optional rather than a requirement- in general. Personally, I'd understand *some* activities requiring specific ship/fleet sizes or types, for instance. That's part of the reason I don't think you should be able to take a Lasher out solo and kill a Nexus. (Not saying you are saying that, btw, just using it as an extreme example to emphasize my point)
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Megas

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Re: Combat buff ships for solo playstyle
« Reply #64 on: April 17, 2020, 04:44:36 PM »

I do not necessarily want a 4x game (although some elements are fine if it makes core worlds functional and not a punching bag pirates roll over if not stopped), but I do not mind having threats a single fleet cannot win against, and player needs the resources of an empire to solve the problem.  For example, a strange enemy that is immune to fleets, and player needs to build a death star or other epic superweapon to take out the threat, and needs colonies to get that bad boy built.  Or the threat is beatable with a fleet, but the fight is so overwhelming strong and unfair that casualties are unavoidable, and player needs colonies and high income to comfortably recover from losses.

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I can't say I agree as I think losing ships should be a standard thing and salvage already gives a 100% effective way to regain them- but it should feel worth it to do so too.
To recover your ships, you either need officers (since Fleet Logistics is a given) or Reinforced Bulkheads.  Reinforced Bulkheads is a significant price for OP-starved ships.  Even if you recover your ships, they will gain (D) mods.  That may be fine for disposable ships, but for your best ships, I do not want them damaged since restoration costs way too much.  Currently in endgame, player can build more on demand with Orbital Works and still have income to spare.  Next release, building new ships to replace modified ships probably will not cut it because of the story point cost to add built-in hullmods to new ships (and I bet endgame fleets will have two or three built-in mods for every last ship in the fleet).

If it is harder to replace what is lost than it is to reload, I will reload games.  Currently, some losses are not punishing enough to warrant a reload, which is good.  I fear that the story point cost to optimal ships in next release will devalue ship production, and put more importance in Restoration.  If it still costs too much to restore ships, I may reload games after every casualty like in older versions, when ships and weapons were too rare to be lost.
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Sordid

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Re: Combat buff ships for solo playstyle
« Reply #65 on: April 17, 2020, 06:03:47 PM »

The appeal of this game (for me at least) is specifically the combination of the two. I find that either of those genres in their pure form tend to be boring. In that sense, this thread (I didn't read all of it to be fair, but I *think* I get the main points) is wanting a design direction that, while I certainly respect the OP's opinion here, wouldn't be that fun to me if I'm honest.

Maybe you should actually read the thread, because I'm definitely not advocating the removal of the 4X features. I simply want late-game combat gameplay that doesn't involve the AI doing most of the work. That's it. I don't like games that play themselves, and the farther you get in SS, the more it becomes that kind of game.
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Morrokain

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Re: Combat buff ships for solo playstyle
« Reply #66 on: April 17, 2020, 06:20:19 PM »

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I can't say I agree as I think losing ships should be a standard thing and salvage already gives a 100% effective way to regain them- but it should feel worth it to do so too.
To recover your ships, you either need officers (since Fleet Logistics is a given) or Reinforced Bulkheads.  Reinforced Bulkheads is a significant price for OP-starved ships.  Even if you recover your ships, they will gain (D) mods.  That may be fine for disposable ships, but for your best ships, I do not want them damaged since restoration costs way too much.  Currently in endgame, player can build more on demand with Orbital Works and still have income to spare.  Next release, building new ships to replace modified ships probably will not cut it because of the story point cost to add built-in hullmods to new ships (and I bet endgame fleets will have two or three built-in mods for every last ship in the fleet).

If it is harder to replace what is lost than it is to reload, I will reload games.  Currently, some losses are not punishing enough to warrant a reload, which is good.  I fear that the story point cost to optimal ships in next release will devalue ship production, and put more importance in Restoration.  If it still costs too much to restore ships, I may reload games after every casualty like in older versions, when ships and weapons were too rare to be lost.

Yeah, some good points there. Overall I don't mind how recovery currently works, but Reinforced Hullmods could reasonably stand a reduction in OP. Couldn't hurt I suppose.

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Maybe you should actually read the thread *snip*

Fair point. Only read some of it.

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I simply want late-game combat gameplay that doesn't involve the AI doing most of the work. That's it. I don't like games that play themselves, and the farther you get in SS, the more it becomes that kind of game.

Ah gotcha. Agree to disagree there. That's not my experience though I'm less experienced in late game campaign layer mechanics (colonies/raids, etc). As far as max battles are concerned, though, I feel like I influence them quite a bit when I fly and don't feel obligated to only fly capitals- even if it's optimal to do so. It's not my playstyle, exactly, but I've done it and still occasionally "take the reigns" so to speak.
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Sordid

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Re: Combat buff ships for solo playstyle
« Reply #67 on: April 18, 2020, 03:41:12 AM »

Ah gotcha. Agree to disagree there. That's not my experience though I'm less experienced in late game campaign layer mechanics (colonies/raids, etc). As far as max battles are concerned, though, I feel like I influence them quite a bit when I fly and don't feel obligated to only fly capitals- even if it's optimal to do so. It's not my playstyle, exactly, but I've done it and still occasionally "take the reigns" so to speak.

Yeah, well, that's why I suggested this as a new ship type rather than as a fundamental change to how the combat works, so that it would remain optional for people like me who want it without ruining the fun for people like you.
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Mordodrukow

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Re: Combat buff ships for solo playstyle
« Reply #68 on: April 18, 2020, 05:24:05 AM »

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The colony management aspect as it currently exists is little more than reskinned Cookie Clicker. You earn some cookies manually at first, then you buy an upgrade that earns them automatically, and then you have nothing to do but wait until you have enough cookies to buy the next upgrade that earns them even faster, and then you wait some more, buy the next upgrade, etc., etc., until eventually you run out of upgrades to buy, at which point you question why you even bothered spending time on this.
Can agree with that. Right now colony management doesnt give you any real choices unless you want to stop on 1st colony. If you have 3, you can cover all demands. With 4 you can do that and have high commands on each planet.

Also, your appearence doesnt change anything except the number of consumers (which basically means how much money does global market have) and how profits are divided between factions. Again, why to explore if sector on the borders is totally the same as sector in the core? I mean: look, sindrians produce lobsters, unique resource (which, again, could have some modifiers on people's happiness if only it exist in this game... but currently it is only a thing that costs some good money). Can we discover something unique that can change all life in a sector? No, we cant.

Also, the game does have living economy, but it is pretty basic. We dont need any resources to build ships, we need only money. I mean: pirates can owerwhelm core worlds. But how do they do that if they losing tons of hulls, weapons and (most importantly) people every month? They can hijack ships, ok. They can salvage pretty hard. I can accept that. But come on, how much do you need to salvage to rebuild several battlestations (AND a lot of ships at the same time) every month?! Or does they build em from sterofoam? And how does they restore crews faster than planets gather population?

On the other side: if we will transform the game into real 4x strategy, it will be much less like sandbox, and every playthrough will end much faster. So, maybe all that is good idea for mod. But not for the core game.
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FooF

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Re: Combat buff ships for solo playstyle
« Reply #69 on: April 18, 2020, 06:30:39 AM »

I've read the thread but forgive me if I didn't pay attention to every detail...

To the OP's suggestion: the only thing I disagree with is that the "buff ship" is unassailable. That is to say, you put it in your fleet, never deploy it, yet get combat buffs. I get that it takes a spot in your fleet but that's not enough of an opportunity cost to create meaningful choice. If I got +10% in-combat speed from a non-combat ship, I'd take it every time, and if I could stack said buff 3-4x, I'd just consolidate some of my tankers/transports into bigger ships.

My current endgame fleets comprise of a few capitals and mostly cruisers (officer'd) and then a host of destroyers and frigates that support but I'm willing to lose. If your suggestion goes through, I drop all of those non-officer'd frigates/destroyers and get the buff-ships: every. single. time. It's simply too optimal.

Now, there are other ways of reducing the min/max nature of this beast. One is force some kind of deployment (which you're vehemently opposed to) but I think some kind of token deployment is not a bad idea. If you have 10 of these buff ships in your fleet, shouldn't you have to deploy at least 1 so that it can "broadcast" those buffs to the fleet? "Babysitting" a weaker ship sounds like a pain but right now it's all gain (in-combat) and no loss. It's not like the AI fleets are going to abuse the system like a player would.

The second idea is to negatively effect the size of your fleet, i.e. the buff ships actually have a negative fleet point number. Fighting with a flotilla of buff ships actually diminishes the amount of combat ships you can deploy. Currently, even in a vastly outnumbered state, the ratio is still 60:40 when it comes to deployed ships on each side. If buff ships reduced this ratio further, as high as maybe 80:20, then it might make a player think twice about min/maxing them. Yes, each individual ship of the player's might be much more powerful but now you're facing much larger deployed forces.

Overall, I'm still not keen on the idea. I just don't see the whole "AI is doing everything by end-game" view. In my fleets, I'm undoubtedly the lynch-pin that is keeping everything together. I'm influencing enemy fleet formations, striking at targets of opportunity the AI is too cowardly to do, pressing the fight on weak fronts, etc. and I feel quite powerful even in 1v1 settings because my flagship is usually decked out in combat skills. I remember 0.7 and before and being able to faceroll fleets with a single capital. I don't know if I consider that "Fun" beyond a few rounds. That's just the subjective nature, though.
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Sordid

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Re: Combat buff ships for solo playstyle
« Reply #70 on: April 18, 2020, 07:50:19 AM »

The second idea is to negatively effect the size of your fleet, i.e. the buff ships actually have a negative fleet point number. Fighting with a flotilla of buff ships actually diminishes the amount of combat ships you can deploy. Currently, even in a vastly outnumbered state, the ratio is still 60:40 when it comes to deployed ships on each side. If buff ships reduced this ratio further, as high as maybe 80:20, then it might make a player think twice about min/maxing them. Yes, each individual ship of the player's might be much more powerful but now you're facing much larger deployed forces.

More stuff to blow up? Awesome! Sure, why not.
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Megas

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Re: Combat buff ships for solo playstyle
« Reply #71 on: April 18, 2020, 08:26:45 AM »

Can agree with that. Right now colony management doesnt give you any real choices unless you want to stop on 1st colony. If you have 3, you can cover all demands. With 4 you can do that and have high commands on each planet.

Also, your appearence doesnt change anything except the number of consumers (which basically means how much money does global market have) and how profits are divided between factions. Again, why to explore if sector on the borders is totally the same as sector in the core? I mean: look, sindrians produce lobsters, unique resource (which, again, could have some modifiers on people's happiness if only it exist in this game... but currently it is only a thing that costs some good money). Can we discover something unique that can change all life in a sector? No, we cant.
If I want a self-sufficient empire, of course I want all demands met.

Building colonies is okay, at least it is not too complicated.  I do not like that limits are too low unless player gets colony skills or use alpha cores.  So far, alpha cores being all upside (and Pather cells unable to break such worlds) is good because I can colonize enough worlds to have an empire (or colonize everything if I am mad enough).  Currently, the meta encourages player to colonize one or few, bigger systems for optimal system defenses.  I like to be able to colonize multiple star systems without gimping defenses too much (so that I need to babysit my colonies more), and that is only possible with max colony skills (which gimps your combat power) and/or alpha cores (which preserves your combat power).
« Last Edit: April 18, 2020, 08:28:37 AM by Megas »
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Mordodrukow

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Re: Combat buff ships for solo playstyle
« Reply #72 on: April 18, 2020, 08:59:24 AM »

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Building colonies is okay, at least it is not too complicated.
I can explain what i mean only using my native language, sorry. Basically: colony management is too primitive, but...
- games like Stellaris dont give us much better (i mean: interesting) choices during planet manegement. And i really cant remember a game with really good economics except for multiplayer games
- we definetely cant transform SS into multiplayer RTS (or even TBS), cause it is not the main goal of this game
- and yes, making it more complicated can make some players (there are a lot of them here...) call it too hard, because they cant understand it
Thats why right now i m OK with current system and saying that we need a mod instead of new eco revision.
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Sordid

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Re: Combat buff ships for solo playstyle
« Reply #73 on: April 18, 2020, 09:28:01 AM »

making it more complicated can make some players (there are a lot of them here...) call it too hard, because they cant understand it

Don't forget that people can dislike something even if they understand it. Maybe they play SS for a different experience, like blowing up enemy ships, and forcing them to deal with complicated colony management would detract from that. If you want spreadsheet simulator, there's always EVE Online. Personally I really like how abstracted away everything is. Yeah, building ships doesn't require any resources other than money, but that's because you've already built a shipbuilding industry in a colony. You already have a few hundred thousand people doing all that kind of stuff for you, it's be stupid to have to go out and personally haul metals or whatever's needed. You just say what you want and your subjects take care of the details. I really, really like that. I just wish there was something interesting you could do with colonies besides just getting a passive income and buying ships and guns from them.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2020, 09:32:02 AM by Sordid »
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Mordodrukow

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Re: Combat buff ships for solo playstyle
« Reply #74 on: April 18, 2020, 09:35:56 AM »

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Don't forget that people can dislike something even if they understand it. Maybe they play SS for a different experience, like blowing up enemy ships, and forcing them to deal with complicated colony management would detract from that. If you want spreadsheet simulator, there's always EVE Online. Personally I really like how abstracted away everything is. Yeah, building ships doesn't require any resources other than money, but that's because you've already built a shipbuilding industry in a colony. You already have a few hundred thousand people doing all that kind of stuff for you, you just say what you want and they take care of the details. I really, really like that. I just wish there was something interesting you could do with colonies besides just getting a passive income and buying ships and guns from them..
Lol. I m talking about mod, because i know that.

And making ship creation more realistic is not the main idea of my message. Mostly i wish the same things as you do.
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