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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Combat buff ships for solo playstyle  (Read 7242 times)

Megas

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Re: Combat buff ships for solo playstyle
« Reply #45 on: April 16, 2020, 02:27:26 PM »

I do not like running around and shopping for ships because I am dependent on factions and cannot wipe them off the map without destroying access to new stuff if I want to play Ming the Merciless and blow up worlds.  I really like being able to grow and obtain a self-sufficient empire that I own and can provide everything I want.

My only problem with colonies is I cannot delegate my fleets to do things only the player can do, like intercept expeditions, seek-and-destroy pirate bases, eradicate Pathers at the source.  I have an empire, so I should have an army.  I should be able to send some fleets to do some of the busywork so that my personal fleet can do plot stuff or play explorer instead of babysitter.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Combat buff ships for solo playstyle
« Reply #46 on: April 16, 2020, 02:36:35 PM »

It seems like you and I have different experiences in that sense (how much agency the player has). I've found that there is a huge amount of challenge and skill in creating 'AI friendly' load outs and devising in-battle strategies to mitigate the AI's tendency to make bad decisions (and these often involve not using the 'best' weapons and ships from a stats perspective). I think that treating the AI's decision making as a problem to be solved rather than an insurmountable obstacle makes for more enjoyable (and successful) gameplay.

Maybe I don't want to just be the AI's sidekick and adjust my playstyle to mitigate the AI's shortcomings. Maybe I want the AI to complement my playstyle, or at the very least not get in the way of it.

What I was trying to say is that in my experience, it is already possible to play in a 'hero ship' style where you fly around killing things with the AI supporting you. Perhaps not to the extent of previous patches where you could solo everything, but certainly to the extent where your flagship gets the majority of the kills and does a large portion of the damage (which I would hardly call being the AI's sidekick). To me that seems like the sort of experience you get soloing stuff. If not please clarify exactly what experience you are looking for?

As I said, in a game where the player's actions matter as little as they do in Starsector, it's either a choice between making fights easy or making them random and frustrating.
I just don't agree that this is true or consistent with my experience playing the game. I find that my actions matter almost as much as the rest of my fleet combined. I have experienced many fights that were both difficult to win and not determined by random AI mistakes. This seems to be the basis for all your arguments and our fundamental disagreement. Can you describe a typical late game flagship + fleet + opponent where you feel like the fight is even and you have very little ability to impact the outcome?
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Sordid

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Re: Combat buff ships for solo playstyle
« Reply #47 on: April 16, 2020, 03:07:16 PM »

What I was trying to say is that in my experience, it is already possible to play in a 'hero ship' style where you fly around killing things with the AI supporting you. Perhaps not to the extent of previous patches where you could solo everything, but certainly to the extent where your flagship gets the majority of the kills and does a large portion of the damage (which I would hardly call being the AI's sidekick). To me that seems like the sort of experience you get soloing stuff. If not please clarify exactly what experience you are looking for?

No, that is pretty much what I want. And I can do it, mostly, but it's just very tedious, because the sort of ship you have to use for it is very slow and boring to fly. Hence this suggestion thread.

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I find that my actions matter almost as much as the rest of my fleet combined.

I agree, that's exactly my point. As you just said, your actions matter less than the rest of your fleet, and I don't think that's good. I don't want a game that mostly plays itself. Older versions weren't like that, and it makes me sad that that's the direction this game is going.

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Can you describe a typical late game flagship + fleet + opponent where you feel like the fight is even and you have very little ability to impact the outcome?

I already did, but here you go again: Paragon + Astral or two against a Remnant Ordo. Literally all I do is sit in place and act as a wall for the Astral(s) to hide behind, manage my flux, and soften up targets for the bombing runs. There's very little reason to even try to move, since my ships are so much slower than the enemy that it makes no difference anyway, I can't outmaneuver anything. And I can't take a faster and more maneuverable capital instead of the Paragon, because no capital available to the player can outrun and/or outmaneuver the Radiant, so my only choice is the one that can outlast it.

Oh, and the bombing runs often pick their targets in the worst way possible. So many times I've had two identical enemy ships in front of me, one with full flux and the other empty, and guess which one the bombers decided to go for. Given that there's a constant stream of enemies arriving and therefore a need to constantly be killing, that kind of thing can screw up the whole battle by allowing the enemy to group up to the point where they can overwhelm us.

Yeah, I'm affecting the battle in the sense that if I let go of the controls, we lose. But there's nothing I can do better because there's nothing to do, and there's not much I can do worse, because watching the bombers to figure out which target they're lining up on and opening up on it to make it drop shields requires very little skill or effort already. It feels like working an assembly line, the same few repetitive motions over and over. I can't do anything interesting or creative or fun. The early game is far more interesting in this respect. Even if you're doing the same thing, the smaller and faster early game ships make for a much more fun combat experience.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2020, 04:26:20 PM by Sordid »
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Combat buff ships for solo playstyle
« Reply #48 on: April 16, 2020, 04:32:42 PM »

I see, you just don't want to play a fleet based game at all. I guess that fair. I don't enjoy that type of solo game as much but I can understand why you would. I personally usually fly an odyssey against ordos, unless there are multiple radiants. I still deploy a paragon but give it to my officer and give it an order to fight radiants. I then go in and double team it with the paragon (I probably deploy some other carriers/support to hold off the smaller ships too so I don't get swarmed). For me, that's plenty of fun but I guess it's not the same as 1v1ing the whole fleet.

As to the original suggestion, I think fleet buff ships could work if they increased the deployment cost of the ships in addition to the supply cost. The issue with heavily buffed ships is always that you could just deploy 10 of them instead of 1 and 9 other support ships (why use anything else) and I don't think monetary cost can offset that without going overboard, but if your buffed ship costs two or three times as many DP to deploy, it might not be thaaaat crazy. It would have to cost a similar amount of DP and supplies as an equivalently strong fleet IMO. It seems tricky to balance, but maybe it could work. It might not be worth the time for alex to try and balance that though, its like a whole second ship balance to track in addition to the normal ship balance which seems like a lot. Again, probably a place for mods rather than a vanilla feature, but who knows.
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Sordid

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Re: Combat buff ships for solo playstyle
« Reply #49 on: April 16, 2020, 05:08:55 PM »

I see, you just don't want to play a fleet based game at all.

That's not what I said at all. Please stop putting words in my mouth. I like having a small fleet, I just don't want it to render me irrelevant. Again, for the fifteenth time, I don't want a game that mostly plays itself.

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As to the original suggestion, I think fleet buff ships could work if they increased the deployment cost of the ships in addition to the supply cost. The issue with heavily buffed ships is always that you could just deploy 10 of them instead of 1 and 9 other support ships (why use anything else) and I don't think monetary cost can offset that without going overboard, but if your buffed ship costs two or three times as many DP to deploy, it might not be thaaaat crazy. It would have to cost a similar amount of DP and supplies as an equivalently strong fleet IMO. It seems tricky to balance, but maybe it could work. It might not be worth the time for alex to try and balance that though, its like a whole second ship balance to track in addition to the normal ship balance which seems like a lot. Again, probably a place for mods rather than a vanilla feature, but who knows.

I don't think you understand what I meant by the suggestion. You literally could not deploy non-buffed ships. Got a +10 speed buff ship in your fleet? All ships deployed into combat get that buff. But you have one less combat ship to deploy, because that buff ship is taking up a ship slot in your fleet. Given how many logistics ships you need to have in your fleet (tankers, freighters, troopships, tugs...), I think that in and of itself would be a significant enough opportunity cost.
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SCC

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Re: Combat buff ships for solo playstyle
« Reply #50 on: April 16, 2020, 05:19:05 PM »

I always felt that the point of the game was to have a fleet and fight other fleets. If it wasn't, why would you be able to get more ships at any stage? There are many, many, many space games where you control just a single ship and one-fighter-fleet the whole game.
All that's needed for a single player ship to destroy unlimited enemies is enough speed and infinite PPT/CR. After that, most important thing is player skill. With previous assumptions, you can pick duels you win and hit and run ships, not letting them dissipate quickly enough with your aggressive venting. Afterwards, how quickly you will kill all the enemies depends on your weaponry and your stats.
In vanilla, against human enemies, an Odyssey and maybe even an Aurora could take everything on, so long the CR lasts. However, when it comes to Remnants, you want to use Conquest, because Odyssey doesn't have enough range. Against any kind of station, on the other hand, you want a Paragon, because that stupid metal donut can just tank for days and that's what you're going to do, when you aren't firing or venting. Only against the high tech star fortress you might want to consider a Monitor companion, because those mines will haunt at night.

Sordid

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Re: Combat buff ships for solo playstyle
« Reply #51 on: April 16, 2020, 05:50:39 PM »

All that's needed for a single player ship to destroy unlimited enemies is enough speed and infinite PPT/CR.

Yes, and the game was so much more fun before those things were introduced. When CR runs out, it's the game saying "oops, looks like you've had fun for too long, time to lose now".
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Thaago

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Re: Combat buff ships for solo playstyle
« Reply #52 on: April 16, 2020, 05:54:25 PM »

...

I don't think you understand what I meant by the suggestion. You literally could not deploy non-buffed ships. Got a +10 speed buff ship in your fleet? All ships deployed into combat get that buff. But you have one less combat ship to deploy, because that buff ship is taking up a ship slot in your fleet. Given how many logistics ships you need to have in your fleet (tankers, freighters, troopships, tugs...), I think that in and of itself would be a significant enough opportunity cost.

Hmm, I think this might depend on battle size! I usually play 500 battle size and in endgame fights I'm doing a deploy of about 3-4 capitals and 4-2 cruiser equivalents of escorts. Midgame I usually deploy more ships, just smaller, probably 15 or so. So the ship would take the place of one of my reserve units (if I have any) but wouldn't impact my ability to do a full deploy at 500 size. 1000 size would be more impact, 300 size less impact.

Maybe instead of not being able to be deployed, it MUST be deployed? In that case its giving a buff to everyone, but would itself be reasonably vulnerable and require protection? This gives the player another consideration as they are zooming about, similar to low grade carriers in the midgame.

[Edit] May I ask if you're putting points into combat Sordid? Apologies if you've answered before. Just because with the combat endurance skill I've never had a capital start ticking down CR, and very rarely cruisers (recently in 15 capital (onslaughts + legions) enemy fleets the Heron in my fleet (360 time) started ticking but the Eagles (480 time) hadn't, so I have a pretty good indication that that battle lasted about 400 seconds.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2020, 05:57:10 PM by Thaago »
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Sordid

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Re: Combat buff ships for solo playstyle
« Reply #53 on: April 16, 2020, 06:29:41 PM »

Hmm, I think this might depend on battle size!

Don't even get me started, that's a whole other can of worms. The way battle size works needs a serious rework.

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Maybe instead of not being able to be deployed, it MUST be deployed? In that case its giving a buff to everyone, but would itself be reasonably vulnerable and require protection? This gives the player another consideration as they are zooming about, similar to low grade carriers in the midgame.

My god, no! The whole point of this is to have fewer ships to babysit, not more!

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May I ask if you're putting points into combat Sordid? Apologies if you've answered before. Just because with the combat endurance skill I've never had a capital start ticking down CR, and very rarely cruisers (recently in 15 capital (onslaughts + legions) enemy fleets the Heron in my fleet (360 time) started ticking but the Eagles (480 time) hadn't, so I have a pretty good indication that that battle lasted about 400 seconds.

Yeah, I'm putting points in it. But CR is yet another reason why I go with a small deployment of capitals in late game, because smaller stuff starts losing CR if the battle drags on. In early game, when I'm flying smaller ships myself, it's even more of an annoyance. I honestly don't know what Alex was thinking with this one, I don't see how CR makes the game better or more fun in any way. I hated it when it was first introduced, and I still hate it now. I should probably look for a mod that just outright disables it, there's got to be one.
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Thaago

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Re: Combat buff ships for solo playstyle
« Reply #54 on: April 16, 2020, 06:34:46 PM »

Well CR is a pressure to push the players towards using a faster, more aggressive approach, while at the same time tying together the out of combat layer, how to deal with multiple fights in a row, environmental effects, and fine tuning the relative balance of fast vs slow, carrier vs non-carrier ships. I think its a pretty inspired mechanic to be honest, but I know others feel difference. I usually install hardened subsystems on my frigates - that gets them through the midgame pretty well. Late game I would install them on my destroyers except I'm usually not using them for more than mop up/escort duty anyhows.
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Sordid

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Re: Combat buff ships for solo playstyle
« Reply #55 on: April 16, 2020, 07:19:26 PM »

Well CR is a pressure to push the players towards using a faster, more aggressive approach, while at the same time tying together the out of combat layer, how to deal with multiple fights in a row, environmental effects, and fine tuning the relative balance of fast vs slow, carrier vs non-carrier ships. I think its a pretty inspired mechanic to be honest, but I know others feel difference. I usually install hardened subsystems on my frigates - that gets them through the midgame pretty well. Late game I would install them on my destroyers except I'm usually not using them for more than mop up/escort duty anyhows.

Eh, players only need pushing toward aggression because they're also being pushed toward caution by the fact that it's so easy to lose ships to the AI doing stupid things. It's damned if you do, damned if you don't. CR is a politruk with a machine gun threatening to shoot anyone who doesn't charge at the enemy machine guns. I'd love to have some positive motivation for a change, rather than punishments looming on all sides.

The other stuff doesn't even need dealing with or tying together at all, IMO. Mount&Blade is a great game that does perfectly well without modeling soldier fatigue, for example. It also does perfectly well without limiting the number of orders you can give your guys, and without having like three different movement modes on the overworld map. Starfarer used to be so full of promise, but for the last half a decade or so all Alex has been doing is adding annoyances and obstacles on the road to fun, that being blowing up enemy ships. I can't even remember the last time I recommended the game to anyone, it's been that long. I just can't do that anymore in good conscience. Lately I've taken to just using twelve tugs in my fleet to reach burn 20, which makes all the overworld movement abilities irrelevant (sustained burn, emergency burn, interdiction pulse). You never need to use any of them, and you don't care which ones the AI uses. And my god, it makes the overworld map gameplay so much better, more responsive, and more fun. If anything, this game needs paring down and removing all the extraneous BS that just detracts from what's good about it. Alex is like a writer without an editor.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2020, 12:19:00 AM by Sordid »
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Mordodrukow

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Re: Combat buff ships for solo playstyle
« Reply #56 on: April 16, 2020, 08:03:15 PM »

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My only problem with colonies is I cannot delegate my fleets to do things only the player can do, like intercept expeditions, seek-and-destroy pirate bases, eradicate Pathers at the source
Sounds like Bannerlord for me  ;D

I understand why TS dont want to babysit allied ships and what he means saying that he dont like that the game plays itself. Yes, Starsector is good game and yes, it requires some piloting skill to make difference. But it is also true that AI is dumb like a stone. Yes, it is possible to make loadouts to help him to survive. But this is pretty much it.

Your allies create presense on the board, because you can give em long range weapon and some bombers (also long range). You cant direct them to kill concrete enemies, because the foe will just fall back and lure em into bad position, and you just dont have so many command points to change orders every 5 seconds. Ofc, we talking about hard (and interesting) fights here.

Also, thats why you dont want to use frigates. In Mechwarrior online light mechs is my favorite class, because i like to do it fast. And i can, because i can be in the right place in right time and deal some damage there. What can frigate do in SS? Tickle foe's shield? Or launch few reapers, maybe... And you still need to spend several combat points to move him into right place. And some to get him back. Few frigates like Omen or Afflictor can solve some unique tasks. We have few long range beam-wielders also. All other are useless. And imo, new skill system will not solve it, because of gameplay basics.

But new skill system can solve problems, TS talking about. I think, we need to wait till new update here. Because, for example, trading Fortress shield for Plasma jets sounds like a good use for story point.
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SCC

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Re: Combat buff ships for solo playstyle
« Reply #57 on: April 17, 2020, 03:34:01 AM »

CR was introduced in part to stop the player from feeling the optimal solution to everything is to solo it for hours and in part to stop kiting AI from dragging the battle for hours.

Before 0.8 and skill rework, only ships that made any practical impact were those with officers and the player, and because the player could use much better tactics, only the player truly counted. The bonuses were less of an issue for smaller ships, but they scaled all the same for bigger ships, so you naturally wanted to get the most and completely overshadow everything else. Conversely, if the bonuses scaled inversely to size, people would feel that there's no point to getting bigger ships, because you can get the same result with smaller, cheaper ones.

Another issue is that AI doesn't handle fast player ships well. Formations that AI ships do are coincidental, they don't seem to really plan anything. To handle such a situation, AI has to stay out of range of the player for as long as possible, while simultaneously trying to encircle him. Additionally it would be very good for it to stay together, so that the player can't fight just a single enemy ship, there's always someone else shooting at you. Enemy ships might do either coincidentally, but they don't stay together, kiting until they reach number superiority, and so you can pick them apart one by one.

Flux mechanics, as they are, also don't yield themselves to this style of gameplay well, because if you can tank damage the AI tries to deal to you on shield, then you vent the flux, you effectively receive no damage. The AI cannot even wear you down in a death of a thousand cuts, because it can't get you while you're on high flux, because you have the mobility and aggressive venting edge, nor can it deal any permanent damage that bypasses shields. Well, that was a lie, actually. The AI can wear you down, by draining your CR. Without it, it's not an enemy, it's a measuring device for your patience. And if your ship is strong enough, it's not an enemy either, but a race to see how quickly you can destroy helpless ships, similar to Ship/Weapons Pack arcade mode...

Sordid

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Re: Combat buff ships for solo playstyle
« Reply #58 on: April 17, 2020, 03:59:09 AM »

CR was introduced in part to stop the player from feeling the optimal solution to everything is to solo it for hours and in part to stop kiting AI from dragging the battle for hours.

I know that, but IMO the correct solution would've been to give the player incentive to not solo rather than to punish them for it. As for AI, the simplest and best way to stop it from kiting would be to, y'know, stop it from kiting. The dev can't control the player's behavior, at least not directly, but he can directly control the AI's behavior. Programming the AI to kite and then introducing CR to 'solve' that problem seems... unwise, to say the least.

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Before 0.8 and skill rework, only ships that made any practical impact were those with officers and the player, and because the player could use much better tactics, only the player truly counted.

Yeah, and that made the player feel powerful and the game fun. Now the player barely matters, and the game feels unsatisfying.

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Another issue is that AI doesn't handle fast player ships well.

That's a good thing, though. The AI ultimately exists to be defeated by the player, so giving the player effective strategies to do so is good for the game. Ever play Dark Souls? Hard but fair and all that. You know what Dark Souls enemies don't handle well? Players shooting at them with ranged weapons from far away and/or from above. The devs could've very easily prevented that kind of cheese by making enemies block such shots with their shields or by making them run away to hide, but they didn't. Deliberately. Because being able to cheese fights you can't yet handle normally is very important for the health of a game. Likewise, the player is faster than (almost) any enemy in DS, so, outside of boss fights that lock you in the arena, they can just run away to heal whenever you want. Can you imagine how frustrating and unfun the game would be if you couldn't do that? And yet even with those things in place, DS is a hard game where players die plenty of times.

If you put enemies on equal footing with the player and make them able to handle everything well, the only thing you create is frustration and boredom.

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The AI can wear you down, by draining your CR. Without it, it's not an enemy, it's a measuring device for your patience.

But their CR drains as well, so if that's to be the deciding factor, then the outcome is predetermined based on whose ship has a longer PPT and more CR. Might as well not have a fight at all in that case and just announce the result to the player.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2020, 06:24:29 AM by Sordid »
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Megas

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Re: Combat buff ships for solo playstyle
« Reply #59 on: April 17, 2020, 06:16:16 AM »

Since 0.8a, AI has become much more cowardly, and it did not get much better in 0.9a.  Modern AI is still much more cowardly than in 0.7.x releases and before.  It will stall until heat (or CR) death if given the chance.  In worst case scenario (like lone starter Apogee), player may need to waste much time cornering the enemy before being able to kill it.  This is different that earlier releases when AI will charge to its death at your ship(s).

Map size.  The problem with smaller map size is you cannot deploy as much, and the player's side spends more time chasing cowards (and forcing his AI cowards to likewise close in for the kill) and kill them before new ones get deployed in a trickle.  Low map size makes fights take longer, probably long enough to run out of PPT.  If player's fleet will run out of PPT, then his ships need to retreat or be stuck.  (If both sides are stuck dead in space, you stalemate in an infinite battle, and you lose by being forced to reload to end the battle.)  Multi-round combat encourages player to camp at his edge of the map so he can retreat as soon as PPT runs out.  Due to time reasons, bigger map sizes are better because fights finish faster.  PPT was set mostly during the 0.6x days, but fleets and fights have grown bigger (ten capitals today instead of three before), tougher, and weaker (offensive skills weakened more than defensive skills since 0.8a), and AI is more cowardly since 0.8a (wasting more time).

What can frigates do late game?  Aside from few specialist ones like Afflictor, just die, either by being outgunned or simply running out of PPT.  Frigates' golden age was 0.6.5a, where a horde of them led by Hyperion could fight anything, recover quickly, and tour around core worlds much faster than any other fleet.  Of course, food runs from Tartaress to Askonia with about fifteen Atlas led by Hyperion was still the XP and cash cow of the release.

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But their CR drains as well, so if that's to be the deciding factor, then the outcome is predetermined based on whose ship has a higher PPT and more CR. Might as well not have a fight at all in that case and just announce the result to the player.
This is a reason why I favor a cruiser and capital fleet, so I can win stall wars if it comes to that.  If AI will play coward, I will make sure they lose that battle.  Waiting for victory is annoying though.

Re: Progression.
While I like to pilot a godship, if all the player can do is be a low-level brute that a power can sic at others like a dog, then the player faction can only go so far.  It is like early D&D fighters that do not get much more personal power after name level (just a few more hp).  Their main late-game class feature is attracting (possibly free) followers to build up an army or run a keep.  If an individual fighter cannot keep with a wizard, he can use the people granted by his class feature to do the work of a hundred or so men.

Yeah, but in D&D you can choose to play a wizard. In SS, a fighter with a bunch of followers is the only option. I think the game would be a lot richer and more interesting if it gave you the option to play as a wizard.
Well, being a wizard in Starsector means developer cheats, like giving yourself money, changing rep, giving yourself ships including normally unplayable ones like Radiant or Guardian, erasing enemy ships... or hijacking and piloting them yourself.  Creating or blowing up worlds.  Teleportation.  Insert weird or spooky stuff.  Basically playing god.

What I meant by early fighter is player progresses from personal power to world strategic power.  One human is limited to so much, so the way for one human get more power than one human is to lead many humans to do what that one human wants, and not necessarily in a fight, but to build up an empire so you have a home, steady income, and maybe political power to do things like mess with other kingdoms or give quests (to clear rat and goblin infestation in the basement) to other low-level murderhobos to do your dirty work while you focus on what you want to do.  Old fighters graduate from being fighters to rulers to shape the world.  Other classes get followers too, but fighter had the most, maybe enough to run a keep or small city-state.  Modern D&D has removed the ruler part from fighter's class features and just gave him even more hit powers and maybe few more relatively minor buffs that make him a better meathead or dog in a fight.  (In other words, nothing to help solve problems when violence is not the answer, such as manpower to build a bridge or other structure.)

It would be nice if late-game Starsector has some ruler things to do instead of locking the player's fleet into meathead mode all game.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2020, 06:47:05 AM by Megas »
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