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Author Topic: Economy is still weird  (Read 1763 times)

speeder

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Economy is still weird
« on: April 04, 2020, 09:13:33 AM »

So... back when 0.9.0 launched, there was a bunch of posts mad at economy.

I ended stopping playing the game at the time in part because of it.

Saw that 0.9.1 is out (well, kinda very late I noticed that but...) and tried playing it again.

Overall had lots of fun, fixed nexerelin is great and all but... economy is still weird.

1. Still too easy to accidentally corner the market and *** off everyone.

2. No obvious way to make your colony have decent fleets.

3. Before the hypermap updates, being a trader was bad, but possible, now it is not possible anymore either, because shortages or oversupply is extremely rare because of how the trading mechanic now works, often you press F1 on a random commodity, the lowest buy price, and highest sell price, is almost the same, always, everywhere.

I am wondering if it CAN be fixed at all, with a mod... I tried before but tried to go in a route where I would simulate too much. Maybe making the economy simpler is the solution.
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Mondaymonkey

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Re: Economy is still weird
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2020, 09:26:52 AM »

Quote
2. No obvious way to make your colony have decent fleets.

What do you mean as "decent"?
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Grievous69

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Re: Economy is still weird
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2020, 09:51:17 AM »

Ahhh I remember the last time economy got changed, Alex said something along these lines ''I hope this will be the final economy rework''. Might be a good idea to hide this thread from him, I don't think he can go through yet another complete overhaul (I even lost count). But personally, I don't really care that much about it, I'd rather see other parts of the game get fleshed out than one more ''simpler economy that's not really realistic but it kinda makes sense''. If a large part of people think it's that bad then sure, it might need something.
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speeder

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Re: Economy is still weird
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2020, 12:18:40 PM »

Quote
2. No obvious way to make your colony have decent fleets.

What do you mean as "decent"?

Basically, if you have a playthrough focused on the "yellow" skillset, you will be in for lots of pain as constant expeditions defeat your fleets unless you are babysitting them with your own custom fleet.

I am managing to do such playthough right now, but only because I put my best colony on same system as a core world, while having a comission with the faction there, thus whenever I get attacked that faction that defeats the attackers instead, but it is obvious no matter how strong my colony gets (it already has all military related buildings maximum, including with the pristine nanoforge) it will never get strong enough to defend itself.

For example: Hegemony decided to attack my colony, despite having the high command and fleet strength of 370%, Hegemony still outnumbered my fleets by 3 times, and had much more capital ships than I had, only reason it wasn't an well... Onslaught, was because the faction I work for interfered, and split Hegemony fleets, each hegemony fleet stopped to fight a different allied fleet, and only the weakest fleet, that had instead of Onslaughts, lots of freighters as biggest ships, that reached the station, and fought it, even then although the invasion was "defeated", overall Hegemony won, they left the system while still having almost all capital ships alive.



If you want to play as trader instead... well, doesn't work either. The previous economy each market would pick some other markets as trade partners, thus trade routes were possible if the trade was indirect enough, for example if the flow of goods was: miners on left of map, refineries on middle, factories on right, and pirates defeated the refineries, ore would overflow on the left side of map, and factories would have shortages on the right side, you could them make a buck travelling all over hauling things.

New economy is always "global", for example Askonia and their crazy fuel production, you will never have fuel shortage enough to make people pay through the nose for fuel, unless you bomb Askonia or something, so if you are playing as pure trader you are screwed.

Even enemy factions right now trade with each other freely, the "access" value is weirdly, global, for example if you are hated by everyone, your access is low, if loved by everyone, your access is high, but if half of factions hate you, and the other half love you, the access is the average, thing is, those that hate or love you, will pay the exact same for your goods, so for example fuel again: enemies of Sindrian Diktat, can still buy cheap fuel from Askonia, even if they are personally sieging Askonia, because unless everyone hates the Diktat, the "access" of Askonia will never drop low enough to make fuel expensive.
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SCC

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Re: Economy is still weird
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2020, 12:29:01 PM »

I doubt economy will be changed again. Current one's simplicity is less of a goal and more of a requirement. It doesn't puke blood if you wantonly add new colonies to the game.
2. No obvious way to make your colony have decent fleets.
There are three ways to increase the potential of your defence fleets. The first one is to get the fleet building, Patrol HQ and especially its upgrades, Military Base and High Command. These have the highest impact on size and number of defence fleets. Second way is to build a heavy industry (to get rid of import ship quality penalty and to let your fleets use your blueprints) and upgrade it to Orbital Works and/or with nanoforges. Lastly, Fleet Logistics skill (don't remember which level) gives your colonies +50% fleet size.
For example: Hegemony decided to attack my colony, despite having the high command and fleet strength of 370%, Hegemony still outnumbered my fleets by 3 times, and had much more capital ships than I had, only reason it wasn't an well... Onslaught, was because the faction I work for interfered, and split Hegemony fleets, each hegemony fleet stopped to fight a different allied fleet, and only the weakest fleet, that had instead of Onslaughts, lots of freighters as biggest ships, that reached the station, and fought it, even then although the invasion was "defeated", overall Hegemony won, they left the system while still having almost all capital ships alive.
This is really weird. I don't tend to have big  issues with expeditions once I get High Command, or any at all if the colony with High Command also has a space station (which it should) and is of decent size.

Mondaymonkey

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Re: Economy is still weird
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2020, 12:46:17 PM »

I do not want to point finger somewhere, but I will.

You see, you can do your colony invincible, getting fleet strength of 370% + quality. I mean it. No expedition will not be able to cut thru. And even if it is, ground defense structures can give you ~100k in defense. Invincible. No babysitting after defense built and size reached.

In vanilla.

What are you talking about is probably nexerelin. I think. All I can advise - check the mod thread. Answers should be there.
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« Last Edit: April 04, 2020, 01:00:51 PM by Mondaymonkey »
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JaronK

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Re: Economy is still weird
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2020, 01:25:24 PM »

It's weird, as I don't have any of these problems (despite being vanilla).

Trading and making money is easy, as two worlds nearly always pay through the nose for fuel, supplies, drugs, harvested organs, and weapons.  Plus they're both Luddic Path so you just trade black market and take no tariffs.  I've made insane amounts of money that way.  Taking out pirate smugglers and then selling what they were trying to smuggle to the pirates also makes a ton of money.

Keeping colonies safe is likewise easy, when they get full defense and you've got a pristine nanoforge.  You just don't build colonies until you can do that.  Every once in a while I have to swing by and knock out a task force, but that's rare... most get demolished in orbit.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Economy is still weird
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2020, 01:41:21 PM »

You mainly need multiple different colonies in the same system to create a fortress. Their patrols will stack and you can safely ignore all attacks. You probably need 2+ high commands on size 7+ worlds for it work well, along with an orbital works with pristine nanoforge and good blueprints, but it's definitely achievable. Having max level stations will also help a lot.
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Aereto

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Re: Economy is still weird
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2020, 02:42:24 PM »

As what others before me have mentioned, there are two ways to have a system capable of fending off expeditions on its own: Growing wide or growing tall.

Both still require a colony that has an orbital works upgrade on a heavy industry with a pristine nanoforge installed, and a properly configured faction fleet doctrine. Star Fortresses are a must, so that your own fleet can stay on the back to support and watch the invading fleet turn to fireworks, then go free turkey on their transports.

Growing wide in one system is a lot more doable in a shorter amount of time, since it involves multiple colonies in one system with at least one colony with a military base to allow proper military fleets wandering in-system, while Patrol HQs continue to deploy scout and picket fleets to lure larger attacking fleets and stop them long enough for the big faction fleets to crush them.

Growing tall is putting up every defense installation you can think of in one system, including ones you have to find from exploration. That only works with low hazard planets due to upkeep eating into your budget.
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Terethall

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Re: Economy is still weird
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2020, 04:40:46 PM »

3. Before the hypermap updates, being a trader was bad, but possible, now it is not possible anymore either, because shortages or oversupply is extremely rare because of how the trading mechanic now works, often you press F1 on a random commodity, the lowest buy price, and highest sell price, is almost the same, always, everywhere.

I am wondering if it CAN be fixed at all, with a mod... I tried before but tried to go in a route where I would simulate too much. Maybe making the economy simpler is the solution.

I think this helped out a lot by Nex. I see many more shortages and surpluses due to the much more aggressive warmongering among existing factions with Nex installed. Nex and Vayra also add options for the player to destabilize the sector, leading to trading opportunities.
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wei270

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Re: Economy is still weird
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2020, 01:17:22 AM »

with the current economic system if do feel it is a bit underwhelming, but i understand it is very hard to run with the old system when you can create multiple colonies that can empty out entire sector supply instantly.

so right now the current hyper aggregated market system is made out of necessarily, but i do hope alex can some how use the old economy system with the colony system.
because lets face it the old economy system was way more fun.
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Economy is still weird
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2020, 06:54:13 AM »

3. Before the hypermap updates, being a trader was bad, but possible, now it is not possible anymore either, because shortages or oversupply is extremely rare because of how the trading mechanic now works, often you press F1 on a random commodity, the lowest buy price, and highest sell price, is almost the same, always, everywhere.

If you're playing with mods, especially Nexerelin, you are not playing with a balanced working economy. Extra factions mess with the economy. Map changes mess with the economy. And randomized anything super messes with the economy.
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Eji1700

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Re: Economy is still weird
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2020, 12:00:56 PM »



3. Before the hypermap updates, being a trader was bad, but possible, now it is not possible anymore either, because shortages or oversupply is extremely rare because of how the trading mechanic now works, often you press F1 on a random commodity, the lowest buy price, and highest sell price, is almost the same, always, everywhere.


I finished a vanilla run recently and never had this issue, and made quite a bit of easy money trading.  I do think there's some econ issues, but this wasn't one I saw.
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Linnis

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Re: Economy is still weird
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2020, 12:32:07 PM »



3. Before the hypermap updates, being a trader was bad, but possible, now it is not possible anymore either, because shortages or oversupply is extremely rare because of how the trading mechanic now works, often you press F1 on a random commodity, the lowest buy price, and highest sell price, is almost the same, always, everywhere.


I finished a vanilla run recently and never had this issue, and made quite a bit of easy money trading.  I do think there's some econ issues, but this wasn't one I saw.

Same for me, last three playthroughs econ was fine and could make profit without black-market or crsis.
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