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[MesoTroniK]

I like those changes Alex! Couple of quick questions though.

Will you mention in the special stat card strings that Heavy Burst PD AI aiming will ignore flares?

And will the on-hit AOE explosion of the Paladin beams deal hard flux to shields and also trigger on shield hits? I think it should, will help it really blow through shielded fighters, and to a lesser extent frigates, but not do a whole lot to larger ships.

[Alex]

Yep, it's mentioned on the stat card. (IGNORES_FLARES AI hint, btw.)

The AoE does not affect the primary target, but does deal hard flux to anything it hits. And, yeah, it gets triggered on shield hits, which I suppose is a bit at odds with the conceptual explanation

[SCC]

Its main problem is really that there aren't many good ships to put it on.

This is the main issue with non-small energy PD. Or, to put it another way: the choice is between larger mounts doing the damage and smaller ones protecting, or the larger mounts protecting and the smaller ones... not really being able to do much damage. It's not much of a choice, is it? There are some loadouts that supposedly work (IR Pulse Odyssey), but I haven't tried them and even then, that applies only to select ships, not energy-using ships in general.

The idea of reducing the damage while increasing the recharge rate also has merit - will think about that a bit more. It does dilute the bursty nature of the weapon, though.

If the goal is to make burst PD less armour-wrecking, how about making it twin-linked?

[Grievous69]

I was just about to mention the Odyssey as another decent candidate for the Paladin (if one is to ever find it in campaign). And yeah, I'm loving these changes since I think those unique effects on weapons really make them stand out from one another. Unfortunately I agree with SCC, even with the changes to Heavy burst, I don't think I'm gonna use it for real. That 11 OP is better spent on flux stats or shield mods. Only place I'm thinking about putting them is the Conquest's medium energies in front (I usually slap Phase lances there) because that ship needs good PD.

Funny thing you mention the Brilliant, I have a 5 Paladin Expanded Magazines Radiant in mind and it seems too stupid but too good. Now that the flux is much lower I think it's gonna be great at swatting frigates.

[FooF]

@Alex

Thanks for the consideration. I really like the Paladin change but you’re right: using a Large mount is hard and few ships have them. We need a cruiser with a Large energy (hint, hint...)

I tried halving the damage and doubling the recharge on my own and it had a few effects worth mentioning: it did take away from the “burst” nature because even without charges, the drop off in effectiveness was not that pronounced, or at least perceived effectiveness. It made them “better” in the sense of they were firing much more routinely so it felt they were always doing something.

With the current changes, I think we’ll be alright but SCC is on to something with the opportunity cost of using medium mounts for PD.

[Alex]

This is the main issue with non-small energy PD. Or, to put it another way: the choice is between larger mounts doing the damage and smaller ones protecting, or the larger mounts protecting and the smaller ones... not really being able to do much damage. It's not much of a choice, is it? There are some loadouts that supposedly work (IR Pulse Odyssey), but I haven't tried them and even then, that applies only to select ships, not energy-using ships in general.

With the current changes, I think we’ll be alright but SCC is on to something with the opportunity cost of using medium mounts for PD.

This is a very good point. It's kind of the same way that, while Flak is very good, you don't see it on the Hammerhead very much - well, aside from the fact that the mediums are hardponits, but even if they were turrets, it wouldn't be a thing often. Where the Enforcer has "too many" slots, and the Dominator has two large slots, and so on.

The other aspect of this is that high-tech ships generally need PD less to begin with.

Thanks for the consideration. I really like the Paladin change but you’re right: using a Large mount is hard and few ships have them. We need a cruiser with a Large energy (hint, hint...)

That would probably do even more for the usefulness of Heavy Burst Laser, really. Thing is, high tech is getting a light cruiser ("Fury") in the next release. But, hmm - the Apogee! Not good for Paladin, of course, but a somewhat better candidate for Heavy Burst. I don't know if I want to crowd high-tech with too many cruisers, though the idea of one with a large slot is appealing. What would that look like, though, as far as mobility and the ship system? Seems like it could be a tricky one to get right.

If the goal is to make burst PD less armour-wrecking, how about making it twin-linked?

It'd have to be like the Paladin, with converging beams, or it wouldn't ever hit missiles with both... still, that's an idea. "Less armor-wrecking" is not necessarily a goal, though - it would just be necessary *if* the dps went up significantly. As it is right now, its decent anti-armor capability is meant to be a bonus and to give it some usefulness vs ships. (In line with the "high tech ships need PD less to begin with" idea, so PD with additional utility is more desirable...)

Funny thing you mention the Brilliant, I have a 5 Paladin Expanded Magazines Radiant in mind and it seems too stupid but too good. Now that the flux is much lower I think it's gonna be great at swatting frigates.

... hmm. With stacking AoE, that could get pretty wild.

[Thaago]

Those changes are going to help a lot!

I can see using the new Heavy Burst Laser on Eagles and Apogees - for the Eagle I could see doing something wild like 2 HBL, 2 Ion Cannons (in smalls) to back up the ballistics, or 2 HBL, 1 Ion beam and leaving the smalls empty. A lot more potential configurations with the medium slot being better for PD!

[Alex]

Oh yeah, I forgot about the Eagle! Kind of in a similar boat to the Enforcer in that it has too many slots for its flux and especially the energy mediums need to be flux-efficient.

[FooF]

@ Cruiser idea

A "heavy" cruiser for high-tech is the route I would like to see, as the high-mobility option is already available in the Aurora and even Odyssey. High-tech doctrine is hit-and-run but having an anvil in the fleet would be kind of interesting to rally around. You really don't have anything like it until you get to the Paragon.

A heavy cruiser with a single, turreted Large Energy (centrally located, with say a forward-facing 240 degree arc with obvious blind spot in the rear) with 2 forward/center medium energy turrets, 2 side-covering synergy turrets, 1 medium energy turret in the rear, and 6 small energy around the exterior for overall coverage (high-tech seems to have a doctrine of 360 degree coverage). I envision it as if the Medusa was up-scaled into a Cruiser and had a central firing platform in the form of the Large Energy.
 
Mobility-wise, it's a little pondering (55 max speed) but has good acceleration and rotation, i.e. surprisingly hard to flank. Like the Paragon, it has built-in ITU (and/or, maybe IPDAI for all these burst pd changes?) but can't take Safety Overrides. Shields are top-notch (.7 like Apogee) and capacity is excellent (even for a high-tech ship) but dissipation is a hair below the Aurora. (Something like 12000 capacity, 750 dissipation).

The system is the lynch-pin, of course. High Energy Focus could be an easy drop-in for a brawling-type of ship, however, a proper anvil needs a defensive system. Fortress Shield would make this ship a mini-Paragon but I think we can be more creative. I'm thinking of a more active shield "absorb" that is active for a few seconds and completely negates incoming hard flux (doesn't affect soft flux, though!) but allows this ship to continue firing. I don't know if the AI could handle flickering this kind of system intelligently but even if used only as a last-resort, it would make fighting this kind of like fighting a Mora where they're difficult to take down. For the player, judicious use would allow this ship to take alpha-strikes, time torpedo/sabot hits, etc. Not necessarily a twitch-reflex system but definitely improves with skill.

Overall, it would hit decently hard and be be difficult to take down but compared to say, an Aurora, it wouldn't have the ability to disengage at will. It wouldn't be a high-tech Dominator, per se, but that would be the closest comparison. I also can't get the name "Minotaur" out of my head.

[Goumindong]

There already is a large energy high tech tanky cruiser. Its the Apogee and its stronk.

There also already is a mobility cruiser in the aurora. This is not quite the same space that low/med tech has with the falcon and eagle and dominator but its still pretty good.

Were i forced to make a new high tech cruiser with a large energy slot i think i would make it on the “experimental” line. It would have a central large energy hardpoint that turned in the middle of the ship (so a hardpoint that acted like a turret with the ship being able to rotate around it) and it would have either phase jump like the hyperion, time dilation like the scarab, or phase jump like the medusa or a new system that stops the ship dead in its tracks (and when lets off maintains prior momentum without having the accelerate again) but gives a bonus to range/damage/projectile speed. It could also have its own built in weapon on the rotating hardpoint like a TPC or a newfangled upgraded TPC

Thinking more about the logistics of this "experimental" line super Medusa. I would call it the Euryale (Medusa's elder sister*). The central hardpoint would rotate automatically in order to align at the center of whatever the ship was actively targeting. When the system was activated the ship would instantly come to a dead stop and then fire the central turret either for bonus damage/speed and/or without flux. The system shunts the weapons venting subsystem into phase space, this locks the ship in place and affixes the central turret rotation relative to space. If it were to move the ship would be torn apart as the parts of the ship in phase space would not be moving with the ship and allows the turret to perform better since it can simultaneously fire and also "vent" freely. The outside of the ship however could freely rotate. (to put a different side forward if need be)

The system would have charges for activation but no time limit that it could be activated. With the exception that it generates hard flux at a rate similar to a small scale phase cloak and the ship cannot vent while its active. When deactivated the ship would instantly regain its old momentum relative to the direction that the outer ring of the ship is pointed. So the ship could be flying in direction 1, activate the ability/lock in place, turn the outer-ring back around, and then fly in the opposite direction when it turned off the ship system.

This gives you some interesting raw power but also some new mobility mechanics. If the ship were relatively fast (but the main turret rotation relatively slow) then this would be a high skill option.



*This leaves space for Stheno, Medusa's eldest sister if ever an experimental capital class ship is designed.

[SonnaBanana]

Can the Paladin's Magazine, Damage or Range be increased without making it OP?

[Grievous69]

Can the Paladin's Magazine, Damage or Range be increased without making it OP?

Damage already got increased with the frag explosions Alex mentioned, and I don't see the need of buffing it even more. Flux cost was clearly its biggest problem, range is already pretty good for a PD weapon, and I think it has enough charges.

@Goumindong
I think he was aiming for a general line cruiser, not necessarily just a stronger Apogee. Because let's face it, Apogee is an exploration ship that just so happens to be pretty good in combat, it's evident it's not meant to be a general ship seeing how Alex made the changes to it in the last patch. And then you have the Aurora, rare speedy ship that is more exotic than general. There's nothing in between (and yes I know not every single role has to be filled, I'm just saying).

Now I am really curious about that Fury light cruiser. I'm guessing it's gonna replace Apogee in the high-tech blueprint package. Weird thing is, Apogee is kinda light if you look at the DP cost. Btw if it's another high-tech ship that's gonna be useless without Sabots I'm gonna go crazy I swear.

[DatonKallandor]

Paladin could stand to be a lot cheaper OP wise. The nice thing about PD weapons is, as long as you keep their combat stats low enough to be only good for PD, it doesn't matter how cheap they are in OP cost. They won't ever become overpowering because of it since no matter how cheap they are you are always still constrained by mounts anyway. And that's especially true for medium and large PD.

[Grievous69]

They won't ever become overpowering because of it since no matter how cheap they are you are always still constrained by mounts anyway.

Then why do you suggest an OP reduction? If a bad weapon costed 10 OP in a large mount I'd still not choose it, since any other large weapon is a much better investment. I'd rather see it become multi-purpose (other than PD duty it would excel at smacking fighters and frigates, which it seems it'll do with new changes), so it has another use apart from ''oversized burst PD''. Rather than make it dirt cheap which doesn't make sense for any large mount since they're not that common.

[bobucles]

There's nothing wrong with a large mount weapon being deadly and useful. A pure PD Paladin would still suffer from the opportunity cost of missing out on good aggressive weapons. It would absolutely need to keep some teeth to justify using it. As long as the weapon deals soft flux damage or if the individual lasers split up damage vs. armor, it'd still massively struggle against large ships. If a large turret still gets to lethal against frigates or destroyers, that's probably fine.