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Author Topic: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla  (Read 23394 times)

AxleMC131

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #90 on: February 29, 2020, 06:40:11 PM »

I don't think that counts from a "weapons the player can choose from" perspective.
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SCC

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #91 on: February 29, 2020, 11:09:22 PM »

And Gargoyle is easiest defeated by letting it overflux itself by shooting Paladin, then finishing it quickly, before it dissipates too much flux. If anything, this confirms that Paladin PD is terrible.

Cyber Von Cyberus

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #92 on: March 01, 2020, 06:39:44 PM »

Oh boy, opinions and complaining my two favourite things. (jk)
 
 -Anyways for small ballistic mounts I'd say the light mortar; their projectiles are slow and somewhat inaccurate, kind of easy to dodge them which is a big disadvantage in frigate Vs frigate battle where they'll see the most use. The light assault gun has the same range but is more reliable in my opinion, sadly these are the only two high explosive weapons for small mounts.
 -Small energy would be mining laser; the low damage makes it useless against most missiles, I'd rather spend the extra OP for a LRPD which in my opinion is the best energy PD along with the small burst laser or at the very least get a normal PD laser. A close second would've been the Tactical laser; seriously does that thing even work ? I've never seen it do anything remotely threatening to other ships, at least it makes for amazing pd if you have integrated point defence which is it's only saving grace.
 -For small missiles it would be the single Atropos; Atropos missiles in general feel like a slight downgrade of harpoons, they deal a bit more damage but they sacrifice 1 ammo and most of their tracking, they often feel very unreliable.

-Medium ballistics, you guessed it, Thumper; not even IPDAI can save this considering it is more expensive than a Flak cannon, Arbalest canon and Heavy mortar all of which are useful in their own roles.
-Medium energy, I'm not too sure, the Ion pulser actually seems like an interesting choice for fast frigates since heavy blasters tend to be too much for them. I'd say the Gravitron beam; it sounds decent but in practice you need at least two for ot to work well against any ships with decent shields and flux; the Ion beam I feel does a much better job at suppressing and you only need 1 of them.
 -Medium missiles, obviously the prox charge launcher, however a close second would be the Annihilator rocket pod; they just get shot down by PD so easily unless you can use them in large amounts and are extremely hard to aim if they are placed on a hardpoint, the Onslaught is the only ship I ever use them on and even then I wonder how Reapers or harpoons would do.

 -Large ballistic, I'm not too sure either, all of the weapons fill their niche very well even the storm needler which is a close range brawling weapon, I guess the devastator due to it's flux cost but even then I have to admit that it can clean up an entire area of missiles.
 -Large energy, Paladin PD; waaaay too flux hungry.
 -Large missile, Squall; I know some people will say the Cyclone Reaper launcher is unreliable and an overpriced version of the Typhoon reaper launcher but I absolutely despise the Squall, bad tracking doesn't do anything against armour it's only role is to sloooooowly build up flux on shields (which is defeated by flickering your shields) and in general I find it to be a very boring weapon.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2020, 06:42:54 PM by Cyber Von Cyberus »
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Tackywheat1

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #93 on: March 01, 2020, 08:25:27 PM »

One thing is annihilators are highly effective at overwhelming high tech PD and combined with a steady stream of kinetic fire, allows something like an onslaught to keep up pressure
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #94 on: March 01, 2020, 08:34:23 PM »

Annihilators are about pressure more than damage, the enemy is forced to keep their shields up, and even if only half get through, they will chew through armor and do decent damage. They're good on both onslaught and dominator IMO. I bet you could make some funky legion load outs too now that I think about it. Definitely not that great when you only have one pod, but I think they're the clear best choice on onslaughts and dominators so I would hardly call them the worst. Pilum is much worse IMO.
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Thaago

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #95 on: March 01, 2020, 08:48:15 PM »

Legion with 5x anni pods is downright scary. It doesn't last long, but it murders.
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Goumindong

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #96 on: March 02, 2020, 12:48:53 AM »

Light Mortar are really good for hunting larger ships. Though hampered by the presence of the assault chaingun in its current state. Before that change LM were the only source of “efficient” HE damage and had decent range at 600. Plus, with a cost of 2 they were able to splashed on whatever you wanted.

Sure you can get more accuracy out of a LAG and sure the HM hits harder. But LMs are still 75 explosive for 50 flux and 37.5 dps/OP. Better than LAG at any OP comparison. The Lasher and Centurion in particular really benefit from it.

The 4 LM, 2 med kin hammerhead was a staple before the advent of the new AC and is still a decent ship.

The real worst small weapon is the light autocannon. Worse flux efficiency than the dual... worse dps/OP than the dual... same accuracy profile.. not really any harder to shield flicker but harder to use to punish shield flickering
« Last Edit: March 02, 2020, 12:57:11 AM by Goumindong »
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Cyber Von Cyberus

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #97 on: March 02, 2020, 01:38:27 AM »

Yeah, I had a bit of an infuriating experience with a slow ship and 2 annihilator pods, I guess that clouded my judgement a bit. Pilums are definitely the 2nd worse.
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AxleMC131

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #98 on: March 02, 2020, 08:54:56 PM »

Pilums are definitely the 2nd worse.

This guy hasn't seen a certain Pilum spam video... ;)

Seriously though, Pilums might feel crappy on execution, but don't forget that they're A) incredibly cheap, and B) insane when you start stacking them.
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TaLaR

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #99 on: March 02, 2020, 09:01:54 PM »

Seriously though, Pilums might feel crappy on execution, but don't forget that they're A) incredibly cheap, and B) insane when you start stacking them.

And also very cheap to counter, because they are slow and have no missile hp to speak of. Single PD laser shuts down 1-2 Pilum launchers. Actual PD, like paired dual flaks can stop any amount of them (as long as ship doesn't stupidly charge right into Pilum swarm, which AI may do). Even meager efficiency Pilums enjoy comes from AI flaws, rather than Pilum inherent stats.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2020, 09:03:50 PM by TaLaR »
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AxleMC131

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #100 on: March 02, 2020, 11:52:22 PM »

[RE Pilums...]

And also very cheap to counter, because they are slow and have no missile hp to speak of. Single PD laser shuts down 1-2 Pilum launchers. Actual PD, like paired dual flaks can stop any amount of them (as long as ship doesn't stupidly charge right into Pilum swarm, which AI may do). Even meager efficiency Pilums enjoy comes from AI flaws, rather than Pilum inherent stats.

Discount, for a moment if you will, the concept of what happens when a Pilum hits something. Think instead, what happens when a Pilum gets near something. Yeah, it gets shot down by PD. But Pilums come in packs - threes, minimum - and that's a couple of seconds for a single PD weapon to be occupied. Even at that lowest level, that's the difference between a torpedo being knocked out or getting through a PD screen. When you have a couple of Pilum launchers on the field - especially if some of the wielding ships have Fast Missile Racks - even a small "deathball" of Pilums can respectably occupy a ship and its point defence.

Even if no missiles connect with their target, Pilums do a great job at distracting enemy defences and forcing them to make tricky decisions in the heat of battle. A good wave of the missiles does wonders at ratcheting up the tension on the AI, and makes them do things like fire PD in the wrong direction, point their shield elsewhere, or burn a mobility/defensive ship system prematurely. Even something as simple as forcing a ship to fire its PD and lose its zero-flux engine boost has its tactical advantages.

So, yeah, Pilums look pretty bad. I recommend looking at them in a different light: not as damage dealers, but as cheap pressure/distraction weapons that have the advantage of basically being omnipresent.
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TaLaR

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #101 on: March 03, 2020, 12:19:56 AM »

Sure, that works to some extent. Against the player, Pilum wall is at best a delay, never a real threat. AI allowing it to become a threat is 90% AI problem.

Point is - Pilums are not cheap compared to their counters. They are neutralized by less than half OP spent on PD. In fact a lot less when it's something optimized like IPDAI IR pulse or Dual Flaks + AC3. Half is best case for Pilums.
Pilum spam is simply weaker than alternative strategies, even if it can be made functional to some extent.
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bobucles

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #102 on: March 03, 2020, 05:43:21 AM »

Pilums are definitely far more deadly against phase ships. Their sheer persistence and long life can easily bully around phase ships, and phase ships tend to have weak PD in general. The damage of a single pilum can easily cut open a serious hole in armor. In fact, most of my incoming DOOM damage typically comes from my own mines (  ::) ) or Pilums.

Obviously a slow fragile missile isn't going to do much against a ship with any serious PD. The amount of missile defense required to knock down Pilums is far less than the PD required to face down strike craft, so if you can shoot down fighters, you can shoot down Pilums no problem.

TaLaR

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #103 on: March 03, 2020, 05:55:00 AM »

Pilums are definitely far more deadly against phase ships...

Against AI phase ships. To player-piloted Afflictor Pilums don't mean much, there are always enough holes in Pilum coverage for 2 seconds you spend unphased near enemies.

Phase AI is completely distracted by any missiles. At some point I recorded a video of 2xCobra Driver killing an AI Afflictor. Cobras can't hit it!... Yet AI spent all it's PPT/CR 'dodging' them instead of properly attacking the Drover.

« Last Edit: March 03, 2020, 05:57:08 AM by TaLaR »
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bobucles

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #104 on: March 03, 2020, 06:07:03 AM »

Quote
Against AI phase ships.
Not really. Pilums can place significant pressure a player phase ship as well. Most missiles can be dodged once and it's over, but pilums have to be avoided over and over. Even if it's survivable, it's still an obstacle that other missiles don't provide.
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