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Author Topic: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla  (Read 7878 times)

Plantissue

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #45 on: February 26, 2020, 06:55:49 AM »

I don't know bobuncles, I don't use gauss cannon conquest as an AI ship, so you tell me. It can go either way from your post. What is a disco range? Some sort of mod weapon? The point stands. Range is important to contribute to create a warding away zone and so those two medium ballistics are favoured over other non-PD ballistics. There may be a point before capital range and large ballistic weapons to help contribute to, where you may favour higher dps and better flux efficiency..

Anyways, an Onslaught with the large ballistic slot essentially has 3 frontal large weapons. Since the two sides can't converge the front anyways, there isn't as much of an overriding need to make use of the two large mounts. 3 Large weapons which have 900+ range is more than enough firepower for the most part. Legion and Conquest can concentrate 2 ballistics. Odyssey can concentrate 2 large energy. Paragon can conetrate 4 large energy, but they are energy weapons and paragon costs 60 DP. Ballistic medium slots being used for PD is pretty normal I would say, especially when large slots are the main damage dealers.

Edit:
The real elephant in the room is Hypervelocity Driver and Heavy Mauler. Range is important and those two weapons have the extraordinary range of 1000. Those two weapons in combination are generally favoured over every other non-PD medium ballistic weapons even with all their disadvantages.
What elephant? You just described the lowest possible DPS weapon combo. People favour them because they have range, and people like having range on ships. If you seriously think they're broken for their OP cost I've got bad news for ya.

And instead of making railgun more expensive just further increase the delay before it starts firing. Then lower Light needler to 8 OP and it's all good. There's really no reason to be lower than that, it's a pretty rare weapon after all.
What's your problem? Why act so hostile and then repeat exactly what I wrote? The range of Hypervelocity Driver and Heavy Mauler make all other medium non-PD ballistic not favoured. That'll require a discussion on what the difference between broken and simply favoured is. Are they broken? Of course not, the other medium weapons are still useful, just that they aren't favoured in most configs since range 1000 is so much better.  For instance is the railgun broken? No it isn't it is just undercosted.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2020, 07:04:21 AM by Plantissue »
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lethargie

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #46 on: February 26, 2020, 07:18:58 AM »

I'd have to say devastator for the large balistic. I definitly like using the storm needler on player ship, even if its not too great in AI hand. The devastator on the other hand is always underwhelming. Relative low range and dps because unless you are point blank on a capital most of the shell miss. Tend to miss most fighter, making it not that great against them. Re shot time is slow so even in front of a bunch of bombers it tend to not be that great at removing missiles.

Of small balistic, the light needler is too debatable to be called the "worst". It might not be the best, but I use it a lot more than light autocannon.

For small energy, I would say mining laser. As anyone ever found anything to do with it?

For medium energy, I would say the Ion pulser. If I need Ion, I'll put an ion cannon instead of it. Its a huge flux hog, It has low range with terrible spread, AI tend to flux log themselves shooting it because it's a burst weapon. On top of that its 11 op, Low sustained dps and not that great vs armor (other than the disable)
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Grievous69

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #47 on: February 26, 2020, 07:35:00 AM »

What's your problem? Why act so hostile and then repeat exactly what I wrote? The range of Hypervelocity Driver and Heavy Mauler make all other medium non-PD ballistic not favoured. That'll require a discussion on what the difference between broken and simply favoured is. Are they broken? Of course not, the other medium weapons are still useful, just that they aren't favoured in most configs since range 1000 is so much better.  For instance is the railgun broken? No it isn't it is just undercosted.
I wasn't being hostile. And what did I repeat when you just said ''disadvantages''? That can mean literally anything. I'm just telling you they're fine, to say that any other non PD option is bad in most configs is a lie. I mean you might be using them everywhere but I know not everyone is like that.
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TaLaR

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #48 on: February 26, 2020, 07:36:14 AM »

I think the difference between light needler and railgun is far more significant in AI hands rather than in player hands. Ship behavior on both sides is altered by flux levels and the needler surges flux quickly. A needler burst can quickly bring a ship towards overload, so the attacker will push in harder than normal. Good for staying on the attack and ultimately scoring kills.

But also suicidal against superior opponent that can simply shrug off your burst. Where Railgun user would have had enough flux to shield and retreat, Needler-user is much more likely to take damage.
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Lucky33

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #49 on: February 26, 2020, 08:42:02 AM »

As anyone ever found anything to do with it?

Pilum defence.
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Igncom1

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #50 on: February 26, 2020, 09:08:30 AM »

As always, range is great until the enemy (or your AI) closes into short range anyway. ;D
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TaLaR

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #51 on: February 26, 2020, 09:10:54 AM »

As anyone ever found anything to do with it?

Pilum defence.

You are always better off spending same OP budget on basic PD lasers, even if you fill fewer slots.
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Megas

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #52 on: February 26, 2020, 09:13:47 AM »

Re: Mining Laser
Out-of-the-box, it is too weak to be useful on a normal ship.  Damage is too low, turning speed is nearly as slow as tactical laser, and relatively flux inefficient compared to other beam PD.  With Turret Gyros and buffed IPDAI (or Advanced Countermeasures 3), it can be put on par with better beam PD.  However, by the time I get those hullmods, either I usually have enough PD or LR PD to use, and do not need mining lasers, or normal out-of-the-box PD is not good enough, and I need better PD like burst PD.

Re: Devastator
Its best use is to swat frigates or destroyers, and ship does not have the dissipation to spare for HAG or Mjolnir.  Hellbore is too slow to swat a bunch of frigates, and the only other flux-cheap heavy option is Devastator.  I agree it is not the great fighter swatter the codex seems to advertise.  It kills some fighters, but not the whole wing when you need them dead now.  Fighters are too many targets, bigger ships likes cruisers have too much armor, but something small, fragile, and does not regenerate, like a frigate.  Good target.

Re: HVD/Mauler
I used to use these frequently in previous releases, but they do not have enough firepower to be useful as general-purpose assault weapons.  HVDs have sub-par DPS - not good when enemies can close in and outgun the defender.  Heavy Mauler fires slowly and sometimes has too much range to complement other weapons in the loadout.  I use them occasionally if I really need the range (such as Mauler in the Eagle's middle mount that sets a bit back, or HVDs in four lance Paragon to enable unblockable lances at max range).

Re: Gauss Conquest
AI drives horribly with it and has difficulty aiming weapons it, at least with a conventional loadout with Gauss in the heavies.  Cautious and Steady AI cannot decide whether to aim weapons or kite, and acts confused.  Aggressive officer drives too close and defeats the point of Gauss.  Maybe someone else like TaLaR has an unconventional Gauss loadout that AI behaves properly with.

Quote
That you can compare railgun to medium sized weapons says it all really.
Not a bad idea when 9 OP is just shy of mid-grade medium.  That is the reason why I am not opposed to 8 OP on Railgun, thanks to Arbalest.  (Arbalest can be a bit junky since it is Open Market grade.)  9 OP is too close to Heavy Autocannon.  9 OP on light needler?  Not with Arbalest and Railgun around.

Quote
Antimatter Blaster is fine. It has a use and if it was cheaper it would be even more favoured as a weapon of choice for phase ships and as a strike weapon. It's good that weapons that can fulfil different roles exist, otherwise all loadouts will look the same.
I doubt it.  Antimatter blaster will always be taken by phase ships piloted by player because there is not much else those ships can use well.  As a general purpose assault weapon, it stinks.  The only reason it cost is somewhat justified is AI exploitation, which usually means outright paralyze a ship for twelve seconds after hitting its shield when its flux is nearly capped.  Kind of a lame reason.  If not for stupid tricks like that, it would be bad because its stats on paper are worse than IR Pulse Laser.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2020, 09:25:35 AM by Megas »
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Plantissue

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #53 on: February 26, 2020, 10:26:11 AM »

Mining laser could be theoretically useful if you have many small energy mounts with poor arcs but not enough OP to fulfil a full PD coverage. Perhaps on Shrike or Odyssey, though you can get full coverage with less weapon mounts. I place mining laser in the same category of proximity charge launcher/bomb bay. A weapon that exists so a fighter can use it. It also "characterful".

Devastator can be useful on the side of an Onslaught. I suppose it can have the role of thumper to make ships easier to beat, though you can do that by fixing in a medium weapon in the mount.

I can't see a good use for Ion Pulsar either. I suppose it is intended as an Safety Override energy weapon or for phase ships.

The more ships with more high ranged weapons you have, the less likely the enemy (or your AI) closes into short range anyway. It's not just fighters and missiles which can cause a warding off effect. I don't see why anybody would put an aggressive officer on a gauss cannon conquest anyways. Seems to defeat the point of the build, like putting an aggressive officer on a dedicated carrier.

I don't see why anyone would try to use the antimatter blaster as a general purpose weapon and compare it to such weapons. There are plenty of other energy weapons to fulfil that role. Not to mention antimatter blaster is limited by ammo so you can't use it as as general purpose weapon anyways. Surely as a weapon instead of proclaiming it overcosted, you could increase its cost to see where the tipping point where you would stop using it. lets see. For antimatter Afflictor, it'll have to be something ridiculously high like 20 OP.  There aren't any alternatives for that afflictor playstyle of repeatable spike damage so that playstyle will simply disappear for the Afflictor. For Harbinger, as it has three other good alternatives in Heavy Blaster, Mining Blaster and Phase lance, it'll depend on preference, but lets say 12 OP. Underpriced the anitmatter blaster is not.

What's your problem? Why act so hostile and then repeat exactly what I wrote? The range of Hypervelocity Driver and Heavy Mauler make all other medium non-PD ballistic not favoured. That'll require a discussion on what the difference between broken and simply favoured is. Are they broken? Of course not, the other medium weapons are still useful, just that they aren't favoured in most configs since range 1000 is so much better.  For instance is the railgun broken? No it isn't it is just undercosted.
I wasn't being hostile. And what did I repeat when you just said ''disadvantages''? That can mean literally anything. I'm just telling you they're fine, to say that any other non PD option is bad in most configs is a lie. I mean you might be using them everywhere but I know not everyone is like that.
I've got bad news for ya. Why pretend I wrote that they are broken when I did not? There is no need to pretend I wrote soemthing I did not, when it is just you.
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Maeleth

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #54 on: February 26, 2020, 10:55:53 AM »

Ballistic S: LMG. Horrible accuracy, turning&targeting, extremely low kinetic damage (meaning zero actual damage to unshielded fighters and missiles)

Ballistic M: Thumper for obvious reasons. 2nd place would be Heavy Mortar. Not accurate enough to hit any target that moves, not damaging enough to punch through anything that stays stationary.

Ballistic L: Devastator Cannon. Yet again this weapon would miss a Paragon from 2 meters away. And even if it hits, said Paragon would not be even scratched.

Missile S: Annihilator Rocket Launcher/Sabot SRM. Both can't really hit small targets, and on a bigger ones their damage is laughable at best. Not to mention extremely limited uses per battle. Better to put those extra OP on some hullmods or extra flux. However they are very, VERY potent on bombers, to the point of being completely broken.

Missile M: Proximity Charge Launcher. Why would you use sub-par PD weapon with limited ammo, ever?

Missile L: Squall MLRS. And another kind of weapon that cannot hit a broad side of a barn, while actually hitting it wouldn't make a dent. At least it's half decent in player hands.

Energy S: Mining Laser. ML cannot bring down a single salamander missile. With Advanced Countermeasures 3. Even an empty slot is more effective at being PD weapon.

Energy M: Ion Pulser. Precious medium slot, 450 range and 11 OP for a slightly better Ion Cannon? Nope. Never.

Energy L: Paladin PD System. Not a terrible weapon, but every other big laser shoota is way, wa-a-a-a-ay better. Not to mention that its range is similar to small PD weapons. So why even bother?
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Megas

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #55 on: February 26, 2020, 11:11:40 AM »

I don't see why anyone would try to use the antimatter blaster as a general purpose weapon and compare it to such weapons. There are plenty of other energy weapons to fulfil that role. Not to mention antimatter blaster is limited by ammo so you can't use it as as general purpose weapon anyways. Surely as a weapon instead of proclaiming it overcosted, you could increase its cost to see where the tipping point where you would stop using it. lets see. For antimatter Afflictor, it'll have to be something ridiculously high like 20 OP.  There aren't any alternatives for that afflictor playstyle of repeatable spike damage so that playstyle will simply disappear for the Afflictor. For Harbinger, as it has three other good alternatives in Heavy Blaster, Mining Blaster and Phase lance, it'll depend on preference, but lets say 12 OP. Underpriced the anitmatter blaster is not.
I say it is overpriced because outside of strikes from phase ships or overloading shields with it, I see no reason to use it.  Has ammo (no good for multi-round fights), horrible range (400), horribly slow rate-of-fire (missing hurts), massive flux spike(s), and even minor windup (no good for Hyperion with maybe a single frame to act between teleports without getting shot).  It is an awkward weapon that is the best at some special teams stuff (likely flagship only too) and bad at nearly anything else.  It is nearly as expensive as mining blaster.  I probably would not put it at 5, though.  It feels at the level of burst PD, so maybe 7 OP.  I do not think it is as versatile as mining blaster.  Can the AI use AM Blaster well?  AI seems incompetent with smaller phase ships.  Is there a good reason to use AM Blasters on more conventional ships the AI can use better, like say maybe Medusa or Aurora?

The only other viable small energy hard-flux option is IR Pulse Laser, which is mediocre except maybe on capitals.  (Aurora can use lots of IR Pulse Laser, but it is not as good as two heavy blasters and nothing else).  AM Blaster is even worse for brawling, and I certainly would not want to use it as PD if that is even possible.

I would only use AM Blaster on non-Doom phase ships, mostly because they cannot brawl.  (I would prefer old cloak to come back so phase ships can brawl with autocannons and assault guns, something AI can do.)  I guess I would use it on Scarab flagship, except Scarab stinks in 0.9a.  (It was great in 0.7.2a, though.)  Ever since invulnerability frames were removed from decloaking, I am not fond of AM Blaster on Afflictor because low range and health gives little room for error, and Afflictor can cheese fights with Reapers (for now).  For now, Harbinger flagship is the only ship I use AM Blasters with.  Mining Blaster and Phase Lances are options on Harbinger, but they are not as good as AM Blasters.  Phase Lance is competitive, but AM Blaster might be a bit better.
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Eji1700

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #56 on: February 26, 2020, 12:23:17 PM »

The real elephant in the room is Hypervelocity Driver and Heavy Mauler. Range is important and those two weapons have the extraordinary range of 1000. Those two weapons in combination are generally favoured over every other non-PD medium ballistic weapons even with all their disadvantages.
What elephant? You just described the lowest possible DPS weapon combo. People favour them because they have range, and people like having range on ships. If you seriously think they're broken for their OP cost I've got bad news for ya.

And instead of making railgun more expensive just further increase the delay before it starts firing. Then lower Light needler to 8 OP and it's all good. There's really no reason to be lower than that, it's a pretty rare weapon after all.

I will just throw into all this that I feel the railgun is a pretty good "standard".  Maybe it's too powerful, but I think it highlights more how many weapons are just not up to snuff.  Railguns and Needlers competing for space ought to be differentiated, imo, by just making needlers way better at burst, and making railguns the "wear them down" option.

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Lucky33

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #57 on: February 26, 2020, 12:59:46 PM »

As anyone ever found anything to do with it?

Pilum defence.

You are always better off spending same OP budget on basic PD lasers, even if you fill fewer slots.

Nope. If damage of the single gun is enough to kill a missile, its better to have multiple damage sources.
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Grievous69

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #58 on: February 26, 2020, 01:01:11 PM »

I will just throw into all this that I feel the railgun is a pretty good "standard".  Maybe it's too powerful, but I think it highlights more how many weapons are just not up to snuff.  Railguns and Needlers competing for space ought to be differentiated, imo, by just making needlers way better at burst, and making railguns the "wear them down" option.
Yea I also feel similar, most weapons just feel meh without some skills, and even then they don't feel ''dangerous''. It's like when you see a ship with a HIL, Autopulse, Mjolnirs, Reapers, Assault chainguns and so on, you actually think ''guess i'll need to look out for that'' before the battle or as you see it coming. But most weapons are just either wet noodles or inaccurate flux hogs. They only ever seem dangerous when massed on stations. I get that not every weapon can be strong and always useful, but nerfing weapons that actually feel good to use is not the right way imo.
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Eji1700

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #59 on: February 26, 2020, 02:02:43 PM »

I will just throw into all this that I feel the railgun is a pretty good "standard".  Maybe it's too powerful, but I think it highlights more how many weapons are just not up to snuff.  Railguns and Needlers competing for space ought to be differentiated, imo, by just making needlers way better at burst, and making railguns the "wear them down" option.
Yea I also feel similar, most weapons just feel meh without some skills, and even then they don't feel ''dangerous''. It's like when you see a ship with a HIL, Autopulse, Mjolnirs, Reapers, Assault chainguns and so on, you actually think ''guess i'll need to look out for that'' before the battle or as you see it coming. But most weapons are just either wet noodles or inaccurate flux hogs. They only ever seem dangerous when massed on stations. I get that not every weapon can be strong and always useful, but nerfing weapons that actually feel good to use is not the right way imo.

I think ideally every weapon should have its "i'm the best" spot.  One of the big areas for this, that allows for weak weapons, would normally be "I need 5000 of these". So a light motar might make sense if you're going to have a swarming fleet of 20 frigates, because it's cheap to get vs say a light autocannon.

Unfortunately the economy is kind of a mess, especially for ships/weapons, so scarcity rarely (if ever) limits you except in a few niche cases, and thus such weapons don't really shine and just feel like filler.
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