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Author Topic: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla  (Read 7882 times)

Plantissue

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2020, 11:10:02 AM »

You can find exact needler parameters in "weapon_data.csv". Its burst is 0.7 seconds. It doesn't have a wind up time.

Quick appraisal of graph - railgun waits 0.6 seconds before firing, as opposed to immediately or near immediately as you have in the graph. X-axis unit in seconds, but that just a quibble. Also you should try to extend the X-axis greatly, the graph will look totally different 0.7s later, trust me.
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Megas

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2020, 11:23:58 AM »

If a weapon costs as much as a low-end bigger weapon, I have no problem with it performing like one.  9 is barely below mid-grade medium.

If I select a weaker kinetic for medium mount (due to lack of OP or dissipation, Heavy Autocannon too clumsy, or 800 range too much)  I always take Arbalest over Light Needler due to costing 8 OP instead of 9.  If they both cost the same, then it would be a toss-up depending what I want more.  I tend to prefer steady over multi-shot burst for kinetics.  (Steady suppression is more useful if I cannot amass enough burst damage to outright overload and paralyze ships.)  For Arbalest or Railgun, I usually take Railgun over Arbalest (assuming unlimited availability) due to both cheaper cost and perfect accuracy.

I do not care about comparison between Light Needler and autocannons as long as Railgun is there.  If Railgun stays at 7, then Light Needler with 700 range is worth no more than 7.  I am okay with Railgun being at 8.
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bobucles

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2020, 12:27:34 PM »

The railgun has a lag time of 0.6? Okay, I can add that in.
I doubled the burst speed to 0.75s. Close enough for a rough appraisal.

It's true that more DPS ultimately gives more, but if you haven't cracked the shields in 30 seconds chances are you aren't going to.

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Daynen

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #33 on: February 25, 2020, 01:50:49 PM »

For large ballistics I have to give it to the devastator, honestly.  The huge variance in detonation range makes it hideously unreliable for point defense (you know, its apparently intended purpose?) and the damage to shields and armor is underwhelming.  For the OP cost, I'd take literally anything else.  A storm needler, a hellbore--anything.

For medium ballistics, you guessed it: flak cannons.  See Devastator for precisely the same reason.  Dual flaks are only slightly better due to the better coverage.  Those things REALLY need a narrower detonation range by a little bit.  Low damage on an AOE weapon is fine but it needs to TRY to pop somewhere in the same GALAXY as the targets.

Small ballistics?  Hmm.  I usually try to get away from small ships as fast as possible so I honestly don't monitor small weapons as closely.  Have to pass on this one.

Most missiles are really not my bag; the limited ammo turns a lot of ships into VERY limited use vessels and I prefer my boys to be able to duke it out.  I tend to avoid reapers more than anything though; the critically limited shots combined with the likelihood of my lemming AI ships blowing themselves up is just too much to bear.  Fantastic damage yeah, but if you miss...let's just say I don't need that kind of negativity in my life and leave it at that.

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Grievous69

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #34 on: February 25, 2020, 02:07:20 PM »

For medium ballistics, you guessed it: flak cannons.  See Devastator for precisely the same reason.  Dual flaks are only slightly better due to the better coverage.  Those things REALLY need a narrower detonation range by a little bit.  Low damage on an AOE weapon is fine but it needs to TRY to pop somewhere in the same GALAXY as the targets.
Are you playing with some wacky mods? I've never witnessed a flak cannon detonate prematurely, it always hits at max range. Still I'm shocked to see someone mention flaks as the worst.
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Thaago

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #35 on: February 25, 2020, 03:11:04 PM »

I've seen Flaks miss skill boosted Salamanders, but thats a tracking issue rather than a detonation issue. Imo Flaks are extremely reliable, high powered PD weapons.
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Tackywheat1

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #36 on: February 25, 2020, 05:00:27 PM »

For large ballistics I have to give it to the devastator, honestly.  The huge variance in detonation range makes it hideously unreliable for point defense (you know, its apparently intended purpose?) and the damage to shields and armor is underwhelming.  For the OP cost, I'd take literally anything else.  A storm needler, a hellbore--anything.

For medium ballistics, you guessed it: flak cannons.  See Devastator for precisely the same reason.  Dual flaks are only slightly better due to the better coverage.  Those things REALLY need a narrower detonation range by a little bit.  Low damage on an AOE weapon is fine but it needs to TRY to pop somewhere in the same GALAXY as the targets.

Small ballistics?  Hmm.  I usually try to get away from small ships as fast as possible so I honestly don't monitor small weapons as closely.  Have to pass on this one.

Most missiles are really not my bag; the limited ammo turns a lot of ships into VERY limited use vessels and I prefer my boys to be able to duke it out.  I tend to avoid reapers more than anything though; the critically limited shots combined with the likelihood of my lemming AI ships blowing themselves up is just too much to bear.  Fantastic damage yeah, but if you miss...let's just say I don't need that kind of negativity in my life and leave it at that.

Dual Flak always detonates at max range or upon hitting a target. It is probably the BEST PD weapon in the game...
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AxleMC131

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2020, 09:18:39 PM »

the group it's in, compared to missiles it's an actually good weapon, but because it's in balistics it falls far because of it's ammo, AM blaster has limited ammo, but can it consume all of it in 10-15 seonds? No, that's the reason a limited ammo weapon can be  good, whie other can be bad or in the SBB case, being the worst weapon in game.

Interesting. Can't say I fully agree, but I'm not really sure how to further that point so I'll drop it there.

... the worst them becomes Proximity Mine Launcher.

If the proxy mine launcher had an autoloader like the pilum I could see myself using it as a fighter denial system. As it stands it's limited ammo vs unlimited fighters makes it less desirable.

I agree at least on principle here. I'm often loathe to use the Proximity Charge Launcher as a point defense weapon (as it presents itself) because of the limited ammo - a PD weapon that takes up a medium missile slot is a fairly large opportunity cost on most ships, you want it to be worth it in the long run. However, it's up-front damage potential really makes it look like a strike weapon, doesn't it? Personally I would like the PCL to make a decision one way or the other, I don't find it appealing as the multi-role weapon I think it's pretending to be. I'd like it to have either increased projectile speed and reduced AOE, or less damage and an autoloader - you're a specialized weapon, PCL: pick one role and do it well.

Quote
[Light Needler stuff]

I have to admit I rarely use the Light Needler, I think because of the price being paid for a small weapon. It's odd because I very much enjoy the Antimatter Blaster, despite it being the same cost, and in fact I'm happy to put an AMB into a medium slot. I think it comes from the uniqueness of the weapon, whereas the Light Needler to me just feels like an ordinary flechette gun. Perhaps it's the visuals, or just the concept of a rapid-fire burst weapon where each shot does hardly any damage, but it just doesn't feel impactful enough to be worth that much OP. Don't get me wrong, it's a great weapon - good efficiency, unbeatable burst damage, and good range - but I agree with Megas that the Railgun at least looks superior in many situations. I'd be down to see the Light Needler get a range reduction and perhaps a damage increase, so it becomes a more impactful weapon.

For medium ballistics, you guessed it: flak cannons.  See Devastator for precisely the same reason.

I think you might have something weird going on, Flak Cannons are one of the most reliable PD weapons in the game. Flak Cannons don't have the same "detonation range variance" that the Devastator does, I have no idea where you're getting that impression from - the shot only detonates once it reaches maximum range (or is triggered by a missile/fighter).
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Aereto

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2020, 09:36:33 PM »

Most missiles are really not my bag; the limited ammo turns a lot of ships into VERY limited use vessels and I prefer my boys to be able to duke it out.  I tend to avoid reapers more than anything though; the critically limited shots combined with the likelihood of my lemming AI ships blowing themselves up is just too much to bear.  Fantastic damage yeah, but if you miss...let's just say I don't need that kind of negativity in my life and leave it at that.

I typically use Salamanders on most ships for medium/small slots for that reason. Something to make PD weapons busy while the real deal missiles go to fighters, frigates (due to smallest peak time), and Gryphon (best missile spammer ship in vanilla but Astrals are best missile spammers overall due to single bomber wing type configs + recall device combo). Pilums in vanilla are only good as pressure/area denial weapons when the entire battle fleet spams missiles, acting as mobile mines that punish anything poorly defended.

I use medium/large Reapers on specific ships like Doom phase ship since they tend to run out of peak time before they run out of torps. Small ones would be in fighter wings, especially when it comes to station busting or expecting several capitals in one battle. Astral with 6 Cobras with a strike-oriented officer made sure they better don't get distracted. If it's a phase ship, beam/ion fighters with PD capability made sure they make an area denial radius around the carrier.
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bobucles

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #39 on: February 26, 2020, 05:09:17 AM »

I think the difference between light needler and railgun is far more significant in AI hands rather than in player hands. Ship behavior on both sides is altered by flux levels and the needler surges flux quickly. A needler burst can quickly bring a ship towards overload, so the attacker will push in harder than normal. Good for staying on the attack and ultimately scoring kills.

The burst behavior is great for rapidly pulling in and out of combat. Every fresh duel starts off at the needler's advantage, since cooling down out of battle still contributes to future damage. Needler is also hurt far less by turret motion than the railgun.

The downside is that needler is far more vulnerable to shield flicker (which the AI is generally bad at). Players are also generally better with choosing proper engagement ranges, so they won't notice as much between railgun and needler.

Megas

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #40 on: February 26, 2020, 05:42:16 AM »

I think AM Blaster is (a bit) overpriced too, and too niche.  Good for phase ships and maybe Scarab, probably the best weapon for Harbinger now that it cannot use Reapers, but impractical (or at least annoying to use) on nearly anything else.  Still, AM Blaster has a niche for hit-and-run ships.

Light Needler at 9 OP, I expect close to Heavy Autocannon (overall) performance.  It had a niche when it had 800 range before 0.9a, even if DPS was a bit less.  Now, it is an overpriced Railgun or Arbalest as far as I am concerned, which cost 7 or 8 OP.  It may have flux efficiency, but it is so expensive for small mounts that it is too hard to leverage that advantage.  (Hard to max vents or get flux hullmods and all the needlers I want.)

Another disadvantage of Light Needler bursts is flux spikes making flux management harder.  AI does not handle self-inflicted flux spikes very well.  And needlers' bursts do not put all of the damage in one shot like blaster shots, but a stream of multiple shots where AI is more likely to lower shield on time, avoid overload, and armor tank the rest of the burst.  It is still possible to overload, Onslaught with about five or so heavy needlers can overload ships at times.  It would be much easier if the damage was more front-loaded.  Shield flicker and self-inflicted flux spikes are why I prefer steady firing kinetics over needle bursts if the latter is not enough to outright overload and paralyze ships like AM blaster salvos can do.

Speaking of overpriced, why is Thumper 9 OP?  I might use it bit more if it costs 7 or 8 OP.  As it is, I rather get another Mortar or Arbalest (and Railgun is better than Arbalest).  Its DPS does not mean much if too much damage is absorbed by armor.

P.S.  I even tried Proxy Bombs as a heavy blaster substitute on Harbinger when it had synergy mounts last release.  (Because PPT would expire before running out of ammo.)  Its damage matches or is close to heavy blaster, and costs no flux, so it should punch holes in stuff, right?  Not really.  The mines denotated far enough away that it usually punched smaller holes than a blaster, despite the bombs having HE.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2020, 05:51:37 AM by Megas »
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Plantissue

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #41 on: February 26, 2020, 06:23:35 AM »

That you can compare railgun to medium sized weapons says it all really. Most ballistic small weapons look terrible compared to ballistic medium weapons. Railgun is great because it is undercosted. Light needler looks bad against railgun because all small kinetic weapons look bad against railgun.

Antimatter Blaster is fine. It has a use and if it was cheaper it would be even more favoured as a weapon of choice for phase ships and as a strike weapon. It's good that weapons that can fulfil different roles exist, otherwise all loadouts will look the same.

The real elephant in the room is Hypervelocity Driver and Heavy Mauler. Range is important and those two weapons have the extraordinary range of 1000. Those two weapons in combination are generally favoured over every other non-PD medium ballistic weapons even with all their disadvantages.
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Lucky33

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #42 on: February 26, 2020, 06:24:22 AM »

Recently I've been trying some weird builds for my ships, like an onslaught with it's mediums being HMGs and only using it's central large slot for a large weapon, the other two being more HMGs.

One thing that I wanted to ask is if any of you have tried builds for ships where the medium or even the large slots are used for the point defence with the other slots being used for the actual weapons? Like a Medusa with two heavy burst lasers and so on?

I did. For the uncontrolled AI ships. They go absolutely nuts when near a missile so you need solid pd to make them relentlessly attack missile spamming ships.
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bobucles

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #43 on: February 26, 2020, 06:37:15 AM »

When it comes to SO hammerheads, the AI difference between railguns and needlers is pretty huge. The AI pilot tends to be pretty shy with the railguns, while they are much better about charging into kill range with needlers. It's all due to how the AI chooses range vs. opponent flux level.
The real elephant in the room is Hypervelocity Driver and Heavy Mauler. Range is important and those two weapons have the extraordinary range of 1000. Those two weapons in combination are generally favoured over every other non-PD medium ballistic weapons even with all their disadvantages.
Range is powerful because the AI is not terribly reliable at choosing good engagement ranges. Case in point, how many times has anyone seen a gauss Conquest charge in to secure a kill, usually against itself? Ugh. Or how many times have you seen a dozen kites all hover perfectly inside a Paragon's disco range? Long range weapons cause opponents to refuse getting in close where they would otherwise have the edge and the results aren't always pretty.

Grievous69

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #44 on: February 26, 2020, 06:43:00 AM »

The real elephant in the room is Hypervelocity Driver and Heavy Mauler. Range is important and those two weapons have the extraordinary range of 1000. Those two weapons in combination are generally favoured over every other non-PD medium ballistic weapons even with all their disadvantages.
What elephant? You just described the lowest possible DPS weapon combo. People favour them because they have range, and people like having range on ships. If you seriously think they're broken for their OP cost I've got bad news for ya.

And instead of making railgun more expensive just further increase the delay before it starts firing. Then lower Light needler to 8 OP and it's all good. There's really no reason to be lower than that, it's a pretty rare weapon after all.
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