Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 10

Author Topic: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla  (Read 7800 times)

Grievous69

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1018
    • View Profile
Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2020, 12:59:55 AM »

If I had to pick a single weapon, it would be Thumper of course. It's one of those weapons you only put on a ship when it's just recovered and you try to slap anything you have currently in cargo.
Small ballistic: Light autocannon for obvious reasons
Large ballistic: Tbh most of them are meh considering they're large but also for me it would be Storm needler, it's so sooo niche you can't really fit it on anything that can take the flux cost and is not glacially slow to compensate for its range. Theoretically it could work on Conquest but why would you ever go close range with a glass cannon. It's a bit sad for large kinetics, Mark IX for some reason has 1.15 efficiency when it's the most average weapon out of all larges. And Gauss is again not a general weapon.
Small energy: Mining laser
Medium energy: Heavy burst laser, I mean why the *** does this exist? It's so terribly bad for a PD weapon AND not cheap on OP, this would be a close second behind Thumper for all time *** weapon
Large energy: Paladin PD, oh hey look another energy PD, it's almost as it's intended for high tech ships that they use small mounts for PD and larger ones for general weapons. Even if Paladins gets buffed there's still hardly any reason to put it on something unless it has 5-6 large mounts.
Small missile: tbh anything that's listed as ''single'' except the Reaper, why would you even pay OP for a single missile that's not even enough to kill a frigate, just put more vents or caps.
Medium missile: Proximity charge launcher, I don't even know what it does and that tells a lot about the weapon
Large Missile: Nothing here is terribly bad but Hammer Barrage is obviously the weakest of all, makes sense since it's available on open market but it usually misses most targets (it's like a Hurricane MIRV but inverted) unless you're point blank. Fast daamage but it kinda runs out quickly, which is ok I guess since mostly Ludds and Pirates use it.
Logged
Please don't take me too seriously.

SCC

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2065
    • View Profile
Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2020, 04:06:02 AM »

Mining laser, heavy burst laser and Paladin PD. All are too flux inefficient, but HBL and PPD also have the issue of hogging very important slots on most ships. If you want HBL done right, check out Machete from Disassble Reassemble.
Other than that, it's only mining blaster that I would call pointless, but even it has its defenders.

Grievous69

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1018
    • View Profile
Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2020, 04:58:11 AM »

If you want HBL done right, check out Machete from Disassble Reassemble.
True true, that thing is really great. If I want to spend a medium energy slot for a PD weapon, I also want that weapon to do more than just hit a few missiles on the way (and even that's not crazy good since flak is the king of PD). That got me thinking, would an energy aoe weapon be too good or break balance?
Logged
Please don't take me too seriously.

Igncom1

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1055
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2020, 05:23:53 AM »

Recently I've been trying some weird builds for my ships, like an onslaught with it's mediums being HMGs and only using it's central large slot for a large weapon, the other two being more HMGs.

One thing that I wanted to ask is if any of you have tried builds for ships where the medium or even the large slots are used for the point defence with the other slots being used for the actual weapons? Like a Medusa with two heavy burst lasers and so on?
Logged
Sunders are the best ship in the game.

Grievous69

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1018
    • View Profile
Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2020, 05:30:40 AM »

One thing that I wanted to ask is if any of you have tried builds for ships where the medium or even the large slots are used for the point defence with the other slots being used for the actual weapons? Like a Medusa with two heavy burst lasers and so on?
Can't say that I have, at least I don't remember similar builds. Because pretty much all bigger weapons have more range and dps. But the biggest problem imo is ballistics having no good large PD option and energies having bad small weapons. If that weren't the case I could see myself using a Odyssey build with Paladins or a PD Onslaught as you mentioned.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 05:32:20 AM by Grievous69 »
Logged
Please don't take me too seriously.

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 8416
    • View Profile
Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2020, 06:16:58 AM »

For light ballistics, excluding bomb bay, my pick would be light needler.  It is good, but too overpriced.  Anytime I consider light needler, I want railgun instead every time.  Light Needler needs its 800 range from pre-0.9a releases back!  As for light autocannon, it is not that bad, but it is overpriced for what it does.  Make it 3 OP and it would be more useful.  If dual light machine guns were not useful for some niche builds like SO berserkers, that probably would have been my pick for worst light ballistic.  5 OP seems too much for a minor DPS boost over the cheap light machine gun.

I mentioned 700 range as the reason Storm Needler is the worst heavy ballistic.  With 700 range, any AI ships that have it need Aggressive AI to use it effectively, while other heavy weapons can get by with Steady.  I tried Conquest loadouts with various combinations of weapons, some with Storm Needler and others without.  They all kill the enemy at about the same time, so why would I want to be dragged closer to Storm Needler range when I can pop enemies from further away with 800 to 900 range ballistics?

Mining blaster is sub-par, but it is a great armor cracker for starter Apogee against weaker battlestations it can solo.  Early game, if I find Locusts first, I prioritize it over the large energy mount, and will keep mining blaster as an armor cracker until I find Plasma Cannon.  Mining Blaster is probably the best weapon Hyperion can use, but Hyperion is sub-par in 0.9a.

Heavy burst PD is bad because it is merely a burst PD with a bit more range and charges at significantly more flux and OP costs.  If not for Ion Pulser, heavy burst PD would be my pick.  At the range Ion Pulser is effective, non high-tech ships with SO can simply kill the enemy quickly instead with HMGs and chainguns.  Why cripple the enemy instead of killing it?

As for small missile, if I had to pick one, it would be small Atropos, and only because 2 OP costs too much for it.  It may be too cheap at 1 OP, but 2 OP is too much.  Atropos would be good at 1200 damage, but I think Alex mentioned that was too strong on Daggers.  Stupid Daggers ruining Atropos for playership use!

If there were more ships that could use Hammer Barrage and Cyclone Reaper effectively, my choice for worst large missile would be Squalls.  Low ammo, horrible tracking, less effective than Sabots at overloading ships.  But, with the current ships, dumb-fire anything are the worst because no ship aside from Legion (XIV) can use them effectively or survive contact with the enemy.  I suppose suicide berserker disposable Gryphon could work.  Maybe next release, Radiant for those with Automated Ships can use them as wingmen, but that relies on player getting a certain level 5 tech skill (and player cannot pilot Radiant).  Hammer Barrage has low ammo, but player can dump the whole clip fast and destroy whatever is in front of it quickly.  (Cyclone Reaper takes ages to reload, and Reapers are too fragile without Missile Spec.)  If Hammer Barrage had more ammo or less OP cost, it would be good, provided it had good ships to use them, which there are not today aside from Legion (XIV).

Quote
If that weren't the case I could see myself using a Odyssey build with Paladins or a PD Onslaught as you mentioned.
Paladin would be no good because its flux cost is too high.  I tried Paladin on Paragon as an alternative autopulse, but the flux cost is high enough to overload Paragon.

I have used beam PD on Falcon or Eagle at times because their energy mounts are set so far back, and they rely mostly on ballistics for damage.

Quote
Large Missile: Nothing here is terribly bad but Hammer Barrage is obviously the weakest of all, makes sense since it's available on open market but it usually misses most targets (it's like a Hurricane MIRV but inverted) unless you're point blank. Fast daamage but it kinda runs out quickly, which is ok I guess since mostly Ludds and Pirates use it.
Radiants too, and they are nasty.

P.S.  Come to think of it, maybe 1 OP is not too cheap on Atropos.  It cannot be used point-blank like Harpoons because of the arming delay, and the range is much worse.  Atropos trades range and point-black use for slightly better stats than Harpoon.  Maybe it would compete with one-shot Hammer, but that does 1500 damage instead of 1000.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 06:32:37 AM by Megas »
Logged

Plantissue

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1204
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2020, 07:17:01 AM »

Light Needler has a reasonable cost compared with Dual Light Autocannon. It's just that Railgun is underpriced.

Proximity Charge launcher, Bomb Bay, Atropos, those are all weapons primarily intended for fighters, so it isn't much of a problem they are weaker on ship hulls. You can also add Annihilator Rocket Launcher to the list of poor weapons. Personally I rather like using Atropos-class Torpedo Rack when in smaller fleets as they make for a more reliable and faster Reaper alternative.

As for standard bomb bay, I'm pretty sure at some point it was available. Don't know if it's been patched out or if it was produced from blueprint. Yeah sure posting pictures makes it looks great against a modded large, immobile, unshielded target that doesn't shoot back, but everything shoots back, so it's awful.

Thumper has a long history of being weak, probably because it was seemingly intended as a rubbish weapon to make pirates easier to kill. There really doesn't seem to be a design space for a general role fragmentation weapon as most of the time you will never shoot at an unarmoured hull, so it can only find good use on a player controlled ship. I suppose it can provide a spike in shield damage or as anti-fighter, but there are far better medium ballistic weapons for that.

If Storm Needler has greater range it will be absolutely deadly. To put its range in perspective, Plasma Cannon and Autopulse Laser have the exact same range. It's more of that other ballistic weapons have extremely long ranges.

Logged

pedro1_1

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 194
    • View Profile
Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2020, 07:36:44 AM »

the only reason I put it as the worst is because it has limited ammo...

Hum. So... What about missiles?

The Standard Bomb Bay has 10 shots each doing 400 HE damage for 4000 lifetime damage. That's easily comparable to a Harpoon MRM Rack or Atropos Torpedo Rack as far as total damage output goes, accounting for the reduced effectiveness against heavy armour and then some.

Not trying to undermine your opinion here, just trying to understand why you think the bomb bay is quite so awful.

the group it's in, compared to missiles it's an actually good weapon, but because it's in balistics it falls far because of it's ammo, AM blaster has limited ammo, but can it consume all of it in 10-15 seonds? No, that's the reason a limited ammo weapon can be  good, whie other can be bad or in the SBB case, being the worst weapon in game.

And light auto cannon is the worst small balistic weapon outside SBB, the worst them becomes Proximity Mine Launcher.
Logged

Igncom1

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1055
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2020, 07:44:52 AM »

If the proxy mine launcher had an autoloader like the pilum I could see myself using it as a fighter denial system. As it stands it's limited ammo vs unlimited fighters makes it less desirable.

I could give it a go on my next run however, putting it on my low tech ships as the anti-fighter to a vulcans anti-missile.
Logged
Sunders are the best ship in the game.

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 8416
    • View Profile
Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2020, 09:13:54 AM »

9 OP for 700 range Light Needler is too high, maybe 8 at most, provided something is done to Railgun.  If not, 7 OP so that is it a choice between damage and accuracy (railgun) or speed and flux efficiency (needler).  Railgun has been unchanged for a long time, and it was not broken.  Light Needler was worth 9 OP when it had 800 range (and lots of ammo when ballistics had ammo).  7 OP may be less than Arbalest's 8, but Arbalest is a basic Open Market weapon (like Thumper and Mortars) while Railgun and Needlers are elite weapons that require high rep and commission to buy (until player steals the blueprints).

Proxy bombs are terrible for PD.  They are too slow and run out of ammo too quickly.  To add insult to injury, they cost 12 OP instead of the standard 10.  If proxy bombs cost 7 OP or gained ammo regeneration, they could be worth using.  As they are, they are only good on flash wings.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 09:15:30 AM by Megas »
Logged

Thaago

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 4777
  • Quantum Mechanic
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2020, 09:46:57 AM »

Proximity Mine's take up a valuable slot and are overcosted, but they do get the job done by massacring fighters and popping incoming ordinance. If you play the mission where you need to solo an astral with a dominator, proximity mines make it much easier. But I agree, they could stand to have both less OP and a regen system.

The Light Needler is nearly a carbon copy of the Heavy Needler with 100 less range: 60% DPS for 60% OP cost, same penetration, 50% of the alpha burst with a slightly faster fire rate, same efficiency. 800 range makes it a medium weapon in a small mount: a copy of the BEST medium kinetic in a small mount even.

So the question is: what should be the efficiency differences in DPS/OP between small and medium ballistics? In general, smalls are more dps/op efficient but with shorter range: dual light autocannon is 143 DPS/600 range for 5 OP, while medium autocannon has 214 DPS/800 range for 10 OP, and I think the community is in reasonable agreement that both guns fall into the "useful but not overpowered" range. The dps/op ratios are 28.6 and 21.4, respectively. If we apply the same ratio to the HN/LN dps, we get an OP value of 6.7. However, the range gap between the Heavy and Light needlers is smaller, and light needlers have more range than the light dual autocannon: with those advantages I'd bump the Light Needler to 8 OP and call it ok.

That was a really long analysis for a 1 OP bump -_-. Lets not do the railgun: its overpowered, bump it to 8 OP and see how it does.
Logged

bobucles

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 459
    • View Profile
Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2020, 09:50:29 AM »

Light needler is plenty deadly as is. The burst-y nature of the weapon gives it a much higher front loaded DPS, and front loaded damage is the ideal solution for shield breaking. The light railgun might have more sheer DPS per OP point, but the needler more than compensates with its higher flux efficiency. Getting more bang for your flux will save OP in the long haul.

Plantissue

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1204
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2020, 10:11:01 AM »

If the proxy mine launcher had an autoloader like the pilum I could see myself using it as a fighter denial system. As it stands it's limited ammo vs unlimited fighters makes it less desirable.

I could give it a go on my next run however, putting it on my low tech ships as the anti-fighter to a vulcans anti-missile.
My vague memories of trying out the Proximity Charge Launcher as a ship weapon was that it was slow and can even get shot down and so realistically speaking never seems to be in the right place. It's good on the unlikely chance it does hit.

9 OP for 700 range Light Needler is too high, maybe 8 at most, provided something is done to Railgun.  If not, 7 OP so that is it a choice between damage and accuracy (railgun) or speed and flux efficiency (needler).  Railgun has been unchanged for a long time, and it was not broken.  Light Needler was worth 9 OP when it had 800 range (and lots of ammo when ballistics had ammo).  7 OP may be less than Arbalest's 8, but Arbalest is a basic Open Market weapon (like Thumper and Mortars) while Railgun and Needlers are elite weapons that require high rep and commission to buy (until player steals the blueprints).

Proxy bombs are terrible for PD.  They are too slow and run out of ammo too quickly.  To add insult to injury, they cost 12 OP instead of the standard 10.  If proxy bombs cost 7 OP or gained ammo regeneration, they could be worth using.  As they are, they are only good on flash wings.
The cost of the Light Needler is appropriate compared with Light Dual Cannon. Light Needler does about the same amount of dps, with a "free" inbuilt 3 OP worth of flux vents. That's already worth 8 OP. It has faster projectile speed with better accuracy and +100 range. Another +1 OP for that seems very reasonable for all those advantages especially when that extra range is worth +1 OP all by itself.

Compared with Arbalest Autocannon, it does the same dps for the same flux, but has faster projectile speed and better accuracy. +1 OP for its advantages seem reasonable, though one could argue that it does less damage to armour. But one is a medium mount and one is a small mount. Medium mounts are more precious than small mounts especially for dealing dps. So compared with the 8 OP Arbalest Autocannon which is, saying that Light Needler is worth maybe 8 at most, provided something is done to Railgun is ridiculous.

Same with the Railgun. It's is easily worth at least 9 OP compared with Dual Light Autocannon and about 8 OP compared with Arbalest Autocannon, nevermind its projectile speed and pin point accuracy.

Sure you might claim that neither the Light Needler nor Railgun doesn't do as much dps per OP, but when configuring a ship, useful weapon mounts are normally the limiting factor.

Logged

Serenitis

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 992
    • View Profile
Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2020, 10:15:55 AM »

As for standard bomb bay, I'm pretty sure at some point it was available. Don't know if it's been patched out or if it was produced from blueprint.
It is available in the campaign, but only via salvage, and has no blueprints. If you explore long enough you can guarantee you'll find one or two of them.
Tbh, it probably shouldn't appear at all.

If the proxy mine launcher had an autoloader like the pilum I could see myself using it as a fighter denial system.
It works okay but still isn't super useful due to being slow, drifting ordnance that doesn't care about friendly fire, which absolutely will bite you in the flank if you use it enough.
They're somewhat useful as strike weapons as they can saturate an entire ship when its right in front of you, and are reasonably good at chewing up armour. But I wouldn't call them great at all.
Logged

bobucles

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 459
    • View Profile
Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2020, 10:34:16 AM »

I decided to write up a little chart of railgun damage vs. light needler damage. I don't have the exact needler parameters, so I did a 1.5sec burst (15 shots) with 3.5sec cooldown (150DPS). The railgun plinks away every 60/100 => 0.6s. Damage is counted when the shot gets fired, fite me 1v1 irl.

The needler definitely jumps out to an early lead, and for some fights that's all you really need. Once an enemy gets their flux overloaded, their AI starts panicking and pulling the ship away. After the shields are overloaded then needler damage doesn't really matter anymore, all kinetics are awful against armor.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 10