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Author Topic: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla  (Read 23423 times)

TaLaR

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #105 on: March 03, 2020, 06:15:19 AM »

You just pick targets where Pilum swarm is currently thinnest. This does mean some extra CR waste, but not too much.
Pilums and fighters can be 'herded' - attack a target on one corner of  enemy formation and as missiles/fighters converge on you go to the opposite end of enemy formation.
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Tartiflette

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #106 on: March 03, 2020, 06:22:37 AM »

Pilums start very weak but have the best scalability with number. Similarly to beams, there is a threshold beyond which they become unstoppable.
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oorek

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #107 on: March 03, 2020, 09:04:33 AM »

hard disagree on storm needlers being bad

they are godlike on conquests, in concert with some assault chainguns
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Thaago

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #108 on: March 03, 2020, 09:14:54 AM »

I think Pilums are very weak. If you have that many medium missile slots, filling them with harpoons is much more deadly.
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Eji1700

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #109 on: March 03, 2020, 11:01:50 AM »

I think Pilums are very weak. If you have that many medium missile slots, filling them with harpoons is much more deadly.
They feel somewhat like piranha's in that you're supposed to use them as a cheap but efficient alternative and hit a critical mass.  I generally load them on my piranha carrying condors, mass them, and then go cap/station hunting.  They're obviously pretty bad vs frigates, but with enough of them on the filed you really screw with the enemy AI, and the sustained pressure isn't nothing.

That said they could probably use a small buff, although i'm not sure what.
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AxleMC131

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #110 on: March 03, 2020, 08:55:58 PM »

I think Pilums are very weak. If you have that many medium missile slots, filling them with harpoons is much more deadly.

Instantaneously, sure. But over time Pilums can clock up higher overall damage.

And don't forget my last comment, where the point of Pilums is not to actually hit anything, but to get near enough to confuse or scare enemy ships.
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TaLaR

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #111 on: March 04, 2020, 06:12:00 AM »

Quote
Against AI phase ships.
Not really. Pilums can place significant pressure a player phase ship as well. Most missiles can be dodged once and it's over, but pilums have to be avoided over and over. Even if it's survivable, it's still an obstacle that other missiles don't provide.

Nope, player-piloted phase ship can handle any amount of Pilums without significant efficiency loss.


Maxed out character Afflictor vs 20 ECCM + Racks Pilum spamming Falcons (+Talons hangar and Swarmers). Even for no skills Afflictor (not on video) real obstacles are Talons and Swarmers, not Pilums per se.
Also, overspammed Pilums cause notable amount of friendly fire.
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Linnis

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #112 on: March 04, 2020, 11:51:03 AM »

Pilums are useless vs the player. But it works well versus the AI in large numbers, add in fighters and its even better. The problem is pilums have trouble catching up with enemies when you get a good kill rate going and thus become useless again.
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Eji1700

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #113 on: March 04, 2020, 05:05:01 PM »

Quote
Against AI phase ships.
Not really. Pilums can place significant pressure a player phase ship as well. Most missiles can be dodged once and it's over, but pilums have to be avoided over and over. Even if it's survivable, it's still an obstacle that other missiles don't provide.

Nope, player-piloted phase ship can handle any amount of Pilums without significant efficiency loss.


Maxed out character Afflictor vs 20 ECCM + Racks Pilum spamming Falcons (+Talons hangar and Swarmers). Even for no skills Afflictor (not on video) real obstacles are Talons and Swarmers, not Pilums per se.
Also, overspammed Pilums cause notable amount of friendly fire.


1. That appears to be the mod only afflictor yes?
2. A maxed out character I'm assuming means relevant pilot skills?
3. Any fleet lacking lasers (ion, tac, whatever) is poorly equipped to handle afflictors.  The point of the pilums is to force the phase, not deal the damage, and it does that repeatedly and quite well.  If any of those ships had lasers to punish you when you came out of phase, they'd probably never kill you, but it'd be a hell of a lot harder to pick them off, adn you'd probably be losing your fleet in the meantime.
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TaLaR

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #114 on: March 04, 2020, 08:45:18 PM »

1. It's cabal Afflictor, but difference is really small. Extra 3 OP and 5% bonuses to some stats.
2. My standard endgame build. All personal and fleetwides I consider important, but not literally every personal skill.
3. Point was to demonstrate uselessness of Pilums. Yes, just putting Tac lasers on them would force longer disengages to vent (at least after I spent armor) , making me run out of CR before killing all 20. Though it would be more or less same with or without Pilums.
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Aereto

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #115 on: March 05, 2020, 04:26:46 PM »

Pilums are useless vs the player. But it works well versus the AI in large numbers, add in fighters and its even better. The problem is pilums have trouble catching up with enemies when you get a good kill rate going and thus become useless again.
Indeed. The Pilums are less about dealing damage, and more about maintaining space superiority along with fighters. They act like mobile contact mines and does the job better than proximity charge launchers. Beam weapons are the primary means to defeat any phase ship (especially beam burst lasers like phase lance).

Pilums against the player is only more effective with phase ships, as they need to weave in between pilum waves to surface and attack or vent. Worse so when fighters are tracking. That will require support from allied ships to deal with the pilum spam.
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Serenitis

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #116 on: March 06, 2020, 05:30:52 AM »

Pilums cause notable amount of friendly fire.
Not once in any of the numerous instances of using Pilum carpets have I ever seen this.

Also:
That is all.
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TaLaR

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #117 on: March 06, 2020, 05:36:22 AM »

Not once in any of the numerous instances of using Pilum carpets have I ever seen this.

Well, in above video at least 2 Falcons were finished off by Pilums, and few others were damaged. Pilums accumulation above the enemy formation like that is unlikely unless they try to target player-controlled phase frigate of course.
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bobucles

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #118 on: March 06, 2020, 09:17:28 AM »

I'm surprised that the pilums actually explode and deal damage at the end of their life. How else would they be doing friendly damage? I thought they would fizzle out like reapers.

Thaago

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #119 on: March 06, 2020, 11:32:22 AM »

I believe post end of life missiles/torpedoes all have a 50% explosion chance, though I'm not certain. I know that Reapers can sometimes explode after they flame out, so be careful...
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