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Author Topic: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla  (Read 8340 times)

pedro1_1

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So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« on: February 24, 2020, 04:15:24 PM »

since the post from @sogriffin, I was thinking, which weapon would be statistically the worst weapon in the game, I also asked myself what would be the worst weapon for each mount and size of mount.

I think I know which weapon is the worst in game, and it's the Standard Bomb Bay, I mean why would anyone equip a ship whith one of these things if you can equip a carrier whith Piranas, which use the same weapon and are better at using it, which is not to say much since piranas are a joke.

also medium missile Proximity Charge Launcher falls on the same category as the bomb bay, why? Just, why? Wasps are a good fighter and you whant to give a ship this thing? This thing also ends up being the worst missile weapon of all.

Medium Balistics:
Thumper, know for not doing damage to shields and armor, this weapon gets the worst end of the medium balistics, mostly because it is outclassed by every weapon of it's size and group.

Large Balistics:
Storm Needler, just go to the added explanation to understand why.

Small Missile:
Atropos-Class Torpedo(Single), this weapon get's outclassed by basically all the small missiles, even the single Harpoon is more versitile, mostly because it can garantee a hit on a overloaded frigate, unlike this thing, which does not do much outside of being a good bomber weapon

now for the mounts I don't think I have enought knologe for:
Large Missile;
Small Energy;
Medium Energy;
Large Energy;
Energy in general.


Added Explanation:
This is suposed to be a statistical analisis, so a weapon can be blody overpowered, but even then be the worst weapon in the game because every other weapon is better than it, an example of this is Megas post, were he points out some weapons, like the Storm Needler as being the worst Large Balistics, the main reason as to why is very clear: it has 700 range against all of the other large balistics which have 900 range and 1200 for gauss, is the weapon capable of performing? Yes, it the weapon capable of performing above the avarege weapon of this mount type? No.

other thing to make clear, this is about geting the worst weapon in game, in which you can equip in a ship, so even if X weapon is not acessible in the campain, but you can equip it on a ship if you get it, it does count.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2020, 10:01:04 PM by pedro1_1 »
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Megas

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2020, 05:55:52 PM »

Medium Ballistics:  Probably Thumper.  It is not so bad that it is useless or a liability, but all it is good for is finishing off enemies in the early game when I have junk.  I do not see a use for endgame loadouts when I have everything.

Large Ballistics:  Probably Storm Needler, thanks to poor shot range (700 range? Come on!).  Hellbore is good for cheap armor cracking.  Devastator is cheap and good PD against frigates and destroyers.  Mark IX it is solid 900 range kinetic spewer.  HAG and Mjolnir are general purpose assault guns.  Gauss is a sniper weapon.  Storm Needler can be useful, but it is the one weapon I find myself pass over most due to its 700 range.

Small Missile:  None of the small missiles seem like real lemons to use compared to each other.  I have complaints with individual ones, and low ammo for all of them (except Salamander).

Large Missiles:  Either Hammer Barrage or Cyclone Reaper because the only good ship that can use them effectively, Legion (XIV), cannot be bought or built.  Gryphon is too fragile for general combat, Apogee's points off at an angle (want to aim torpedoes instead of firing your energy weapon?), Conquest is built for broadside ballistic combat, Odyssey is built for brawling to its left, Astral is built for bomber spam, Atlas 2 is an intentionally underpowered ship built for pirates.  Starsector needs to do at least one of: restore Aurora's large missile mount, buff Gryphon to play like pre-0.7.2a Aurora, make Legion (XIV) blueprints accessible so that those ships can be bought or built, or add new competitive ship that can ram Hammer Barrage or Cyclone Reapers down ships' throats.  Currently, unless I have Legion (XIV) in my fleet, the dumb-fire large missiles are impractical to use.

Small Energy:  Mining Laser.  It needs boosts (IPDAI) to have some use.  By the time I have IPDAI, I have better PD lasers.

Medium Energy:  Ion Pulser.  Too short-ranged and inefficient.  The only ship I might use it on is Aurora, but I have little incentive to use Aurora in the first place.

Large Energy:  Paladin PD.  It is a flux hog, and can overload Paragon that wants to fire several.
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ranprieur

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2020, 06:10:53 PM »

Piranhas are no joke. I've done a lot of loadout testing in the simulator, and they outperform some bombers that cost more points. Even frigates sometimes fail to dodge their clouds of bombs.

LR-PD seems like a good idea, but in practice, regular PD lasers work better for point defense, and Tactical Lasers work better at long range.

I think the most overrated weapon is any Reaper in the hands of AI. They almost always get shot down by point defense, because the AI is not smart enough to zoom in and drop them on ships that are overloading.
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bobucles

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2020, 06:23:19 PM »

Medium Ballistics:  Probably Thumper.  It is not so bad that it is useless or a liability, but all it is good for is finishing off enemies in the early game when I have junk.  I do not see a use for endgame loadouts when I have everything.
The thumper is definitely top pick for a tragic weapon. It has all the weaknesses of a fragmentation weapon, but isn't good as point defense. The 5% armor system deals a devastating blow to frag weapons, and impact Mitigation 1 also armor caps naked hull.

TaLaR

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2020, 08:13:12 PM »

LR-PD seems like a good idea, but in practice, regular PD lasers work better for point defense, and Tactical Lasers work better at long range.

 2-3 LRPD are good to intercept 1-2 Sabots for cheap. And a bit of flux efficient soft flux damage. Basically it's for Eagle and Falcon.
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Thaago

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2020, 08:17:50 PM »

To me the single light autocannon stands out as the worst weapon. It is inaccurate, inefficient, low DPS, and high OP cost for its DPS. In its current form it has no redeeming qualities. I believe it is getting an extremely large accuracy boost for next version: that, a change to 1.0 efficiency, and a reduction to 3 OP would make it an ok gun.
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pedro1_1

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2020, 08:46:56 PM »

To me the single light autocannon stands out as the worst weapon. It is inaccurate, inefficient, low DPS, and high OP cost for its DPS. In its current form it has no redeeming qualities. I believe it is getting an extremely large accuracy boost for next version: that, a change to 1.0 efficiency, and a reduction to 3 OP would make it an ok gun.

that is a good argument, but the Standard Bomb Bay is at the same OP cost, has even worst acurracy, 15 ammo whith Extended Magazines which in turn means the maximum up time of this weapon is 15 seconds and it can be blocked by flack fire, even the light autocannon is a weapon I would think of using unlike the SBB.
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Thaago

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2020, 08:51:16 PM »

I don't believe the standard bomb bay can be sold or equipped on ships though? I may be mistaken, but I thought it was Piranha exclusive at this point.
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AxleMC131

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2020, 09:00:54 PM »

I think I know which weapon is the worst in game, and it's the Standard Bomb Bay, I mean why would anyone equip a ship whith one of these things if you can equip a carrier whith Piranas, which use the same weapon and are better at using it, which is not to say much since piranas are a joke.

Sorry to be a buzzkill here, but you realise that the Standard Bomb Bay is not acquirable in the campaign? The fact you can put it on ships in the single missions is an oversight to me, it should have the SYSTEM tag like any other fighter-only weapon. Given that, I don't think it's fair to call it out as "a bad weapon".



It's difficult to point out a "worst weapon" for the game, because most content in the game is designed to have both strengths and weaknesses to make nothing objectively better or worse than anything else. Sure a weapon might have low range, damage, accuracy and cost too much flux (I can't think of anything that is all four of these), but I'll bet you a Paragon's paycheck that it's extremely cheap. And you can have weapons that are good in the players hands but poor in the AI's hands, or vice versa. Things like that boil down almost always to being subjective.

So let's be subjective. Personally, I'm not a fan of the small Autocannons. I'm not rightly sure what it is I dislike about them, but they just rarely feel effective enough. It could be the inaccuracy, it could be the inefficiency, but if I was to make one change to the LAC and LDAC to buff them for whatever reason, it would be a slight increase in fire rate.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2020, 09:06:44 PM by AxleMC131 »
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pedro1_1

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2020, 09:08:52 PM »

I think I know which weapon is the worst in game, and it's the Standard Bomb Bay, I mean why would anyone equip a ship whith one of these things if you can equip a carrier whith Piranas, which use the same weapon and are better at using it, which is not to say much since piranas are a joke.

Sorry to be a buzzkill here, but you realise that the Standard Bomb Bay is not acquirable in the campaign? The fact you can put it on ships in the single missions is an oversight to me, it should have the SYSTEM tag like any other fighter-only weapon. Given that, I don't think it's fair to call it out as "a bad weapon".

I'm talking about what weapon is the statistically worst you can use, as of now, you can use the bomb bay on ships as of now so it counts next update we will have a new balance pach and as such we will need a new tread to find out which is the worst weapon on that pach
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2020, 10:33:24 PM »

Bomb bay is not available in the campaign AFAIK, so its definitely not a fair comparison to other weapons. I'm pretty sure it's an oversight if you can equip it somewhere else, it's definitely intended as a fighter weapon not a ship weapon. 
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AxleMC131

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2020, 10:40:32 PM »

Alright then, I'll play ball.

Standard Bomb Bay = worst weapon in vanilla? Nah.

Spoiler







[close]
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Eji1700

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2020, 11:00:53 PM »

The 5% armor system deals a devastating blow to frag weapons, and impact Mitigation 1 also armor caps naked hull.
I would really really like a ship system that gets around this, or at least reduces it, even if it's only for certain hulls or something.  It really strips out a lot of interesting builds (which still wouldn't be top tier but at least wouldn't feel painful to field).
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pedro1_1

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2020, 11:08:57 PM »

Alright then, I'll play ball.

Standard Bomb Bay = worst weapon in vanilla? Nah.

Spoiler







[close]

the only reason I put it as the worst is because it has limited ammo, outside of that Light Autocannon is worse in every way, but it has infinite ammo, so much that it would be the worst weapon in the game if the standard bomb bay had infinity ammo, or a version of it
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AxleMC131

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Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2020, 12:53:32 AM »

the only reason I put it as the worst is because it has limited ammo...

Hum. So... What about missiles?

The Standard Bomb Bay has 10 shots each doing 400 HE damage for 4000 lifetime damage. That's easily comparable to a Harpoon MRM Rack or Atropos Torpedo Rack as far as total damage output goes, accounting for the reduced effectiveness against heavy armour and then some.

Not trying to undermine your opinion here, just trying to understand why you think the bomb bay is quite so awful.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 12:56:34 AM by AxleMC131 »
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