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Author Topic: Small Paragon nerf  (Read 3969 times)

lethargie

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Re: Small Paragon nerf
« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2020, 07:32:30 AM »

Every other thread so far: ''capitals are too good, i want to feel good using smaller ships'', I make a thread to see which idea would be best to tone down the strongest capital and the most annoying one (yea I know it's 60 DP, I'd still rather face 2 Onslaughts): ''nah it's fine, it's fine''... It really do be like that. I'm the last guy who wants to see capitals nerfed because I think they're in a good spot, but obviously something's gonna get changed so I'd rather see ships nerfed in a way that it doesn't gimp their strengths too much (if it comes to that).

If capitals are too good, nerfing one of them changes nothing, It only makes the other capital nicer in comparison. As most people pointed out, conquest and odyssey seems to be a bit more popular already for player-piloted capitals And the dp cost of paragons means I usually prefer fighting against paragon wielding AI than other capital ( its pretty easy to isolate it and murder it through numbers)
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Grievous69

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Re: Small Paragon nerf
« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2020, 07:43:13 AM »

I don't know what you are talking about about high tech ships either. The type descriptions exist, but it makes no sense to regard a Lasher and a Legion as the same category of ships simply because they both got the label of "low tech" on them. I consider each ship individually rather than your enclosing them in those categories.
We're not the ones who labeled them, Alex did. Hovering over ships you can always see if they're low tech, midline or high tech, or something fancy doesn't matter. The thing is, those design philosophies USUALLY follow some rules, like low tech = slow with good armour and ballistics for example (with exceptions of course). So yes, Lasher and Legion fall into the same category. They're both slower then their fellow size ships, both have more armour, and both have ballistic + missile mounts. You can't deny the patterns.
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SCC

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Re: Small Paragon nerf
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2020, 08:58:09 AM »

Are low tech ships supposed to be less power but cheaper? Were do you guys get that from?
One thing is that low-tech ships tend to be valued at fewer DPs. Holds true for frigates, destroyers and sort of cruisers (Dominator is a heavy cruiser, but we don't know how expensive heavy cruiser of another design philosophy would be. Mora, on the other hand, is cheaper indeed). Design philosophy is also skewed this way somewhat; low-tech ships are comparatively worse, but can support one another, while high-tech ships are better, but less numerous, having to use their mobility to achieve local superiority. At least, that's the platonic ideal...
A more significant reason why I brought that up is because Alex made a comment that amounted to that, one day. Though, now that I think about it, it might have been from before maintenance and recovery costs were unified. I never really thought about it since. On one hand, the fact that I could do just fine regardless proves that it's not a big handicap, but on the other, Alex ought to take a look at this and make sure that he didn't accidentally triple the maintenance of certain ships for no good reason.

Plantissue

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Re: Small Paragon nerf
« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2020, 09:37:06 AM »

It makes no sense to arbitrary follow those tech labels for comparing ships. There's nothing to really indicate that the whole thing with "high-tech ships are delicate and so they're expensive and lose more CR to deploy". They cost more to deploy because Tempest and Medusa and Aurora and Paragon are simply more powerful than their peers and so need to be measured by DP. But that is not true across the ships. Patterns and trends are not hard rules. Lasher for instance is faster than fellow size mid-line Brawler. Legion has less large ballistic mounts than Conquest.

Wherever you got that philsophy from, it hasn't been apparent for years. For instance we now have Shrike a low DP high tech Destroyer. Apogee is also a low DP high tech Cruiser. The lowest DP non-civilian cruiser is mid-line. Those labels of tech can be removed with no detrimental effects on the game whatsoever. We can call the Drover as thematically a low-tech ship and the Venture or Monitor as a midline ship and nothing will change.
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bobucles

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Re: Small Paragon nerf
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2020, 10:17:09 AM »

It probably makes more sense to discard the idea of tech level, and treat the design type same way as most mods do. Think of it in terms of factions. The Hegemony is a primary producer and user of Low Tech themed ships, while Trytach uses primarily High tech. They could just as easily been called "Hegemony" and "Trytach" designs, except sometimes other factions use them too. Other mods have their own unique design types, like Blackrock industries explicitly produces Blackrock tech ships.

Hegemony ships do tend to rely on thick armor while Trytach ships lean on shields and phase space as their primary defense. Low tech ships also tend to have yellow mounts, while high tech uses lots of blue mounts. Other than that, each ship is their own.

Igncom1

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Re: Small Paragon nerf
« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2020, 10:32:55 AM »

I think there are references to different manufacturer or design schools for the various ships. Then there are the references to carrier and gunboat schools of military strategy that seem to come and go out of fashion in the Domain before the collapse. And finally it's not the the factions strictly use low/mid/high tech craft. The hegemony use high tech wolfs, mid tech eagles, and low tech battleships for instance.
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